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Originally posted by baltassoc
How about this: we went in unprepared, and we still do not have sufficient troops on the ground to fully control the situation, apparently the result of the misguided notion of our leadership that we would be welcomed with open arms and that everyone would just be cool once we got there and rolled through. Our troops have suffiecient strength to defend themselves and westerners within enclaves, but they have not projected enough control in Iraq to actually establish stability in the countryside.
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Cool. All without "we lost!", or that other stuff. And, I'd buy a fair amount of what you just said. I'd argue some, especially about how we were and are welcomed, but not the main themes.
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If we were to pull out now, we would leave Iraq a chaotic mess. However, there appears to be no concrete plan to change that fact, such that when we pull out in five years the country will be stable. We haven't lost, but we sure as hell haven't won. Indeed, if Saddam is not executed or otherwise dead before the US pulls out, I'm not sure that even your first criteria of a win (toppling Saddam) has been satisfied long term.
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I have friends over there who tell me that we have far more control, and far more Iraqi cooperation and goodwill, and far more of a remade society than what we're presented with in our normal information delivery process here, so I end up with a more optimistic feeling about it all than do you. I'd argue that we DO have a concrete plan, and it's the one we've been using for some time, and it's working. I guess only time will tell on that, though.
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Additionally, our leadership has approved interogation techniques that I believe are immoral and violate the basic tenents upon which this country were founded, although I think they are doing so under the (mistaken) belief that this will somehow be to America's advantage. Look, I'd like to figure out some way of raising this issue without sounding like I'm saying US troops are torturing people, but US troops are torturing people.
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I can't address this entire topic. I just don't know enough about it to speak with any authority.
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As for the ranting and making shit up, where did Democrats learn that? "From you, alright. [We] got it by watching you."
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Yes, son. Now hand over that joint and go to bed.
