Politics: J'accuse!

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Tell me what I missed in your post. Tell me the part where you actually show some respect for his military service, or for any Dem's.

Oh, maybe "Back then, there was no clear and easy answer to the question of, do you serve patriotism by blindly and mindlessly following orders from a government that was roundly suspected as being venal and corrupt and willing to sacrifice lives, american and otherwise, for monetary gain, or by fighting for peacable values? (We didn't know then what we know now about VN, Cambodia, etc.) To call an antiwar protestor, or even a soldier-turned-antiwar-activist, "unpatriotic" is to so oversimplify the whole mess as to make it meaningless. So, to me, none of Kerry's stands, changing as they seemed to do, impugn his honor, or his character, or his suitability to lead."

Your strawman characterization of Kerry's position, above, shows that the line I "extracted" is a perfect indication of your complete refusal to acknowledge the man's service.

"Acknowledge"? How the hell can I not acknowledge what he says with his every breath? You wilfully miss the point, mostly because it serves your hysterical "don't impugn my patriotism!" theme - HE put it out there, and so he can't expect it not to be dissected.

And it's not faux indignation (really, Bilmore -- you of all people should avoid trying to use French words, you just fuck it up). I would be equally disgusted if any Dem were to attack a Repub's service in the same way.

And yet, your next post attacks Bush's service in the Guard. Jesus, you are being dense today.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
I agree, but adjusted dollar-wise, I'll bet Tillman gave up more cash than Teddy Ballgame.

Sure. Ted Williams's death was news regardless of how it happened (or what happened to his head). Pat Tillman's death would not have been (unless he died of 'roids). That was really teh point of my distinction (although I guess you got it).

The point isn't the sacrifice being made. To me, anyone going into combat is making a sizable sacrifice, and he was to be lauded when he enlisted as making an uncommon one. And I'm pretty sure he was at the time. But the degree of lionization since his death seems out of proportion to its importance: he's one of several hundred to die in the middle east, none of whom we want to see dead.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Sure. Ted Williams's death was news regardless of how it happened (or what happened to his head). Pat Tillman's death would not have been (unless he died of 'roids). That was really teh point of my distinction (although I guess you got it).

The point isn't the sacrifice being made. To me, anyone going into combat is making a sizable sacrifice, and he was to be lauded when he enlisted as making an uncommon one. And I'm pretty sure he was at the time. But the degree of lionization since his death seems out of proportion to its importance: he's one of several hundred to die in the middle east, none of whom we want to see dead.

I suspect it's just because people want heroes, and he makes (at least on surface level) a good one. Some people want them for personal reassurance, and some because it helps them sell the cause he died for.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by bilmore
And yet, your next post attacks Bush's service in the Guard.

I'm sorry, I was unaware of all the casualties sustained by members of the Alabama Air National Guard. Educate me, oh wise one.

(Additional statistics on casualties sustained by those who didn't report for duty would also be appreciated. Did Bush win a Purple Heart for that trip to the dentist?)

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Sure. Ted Williams's death was news regardless of how it happened (or what happened to his head). Pat Tillman's death would not have been (unless he died of 'roids). That was really teh point of my distinction (although I guess you got it).

The point isn't the sacrifice being made. To me, anyone going into combat is making a sizable sacrifice, and he was to be lauded when he enlisted as making an uncommon one. And I'm pretty sure he was at the time. But the degree of lionization since his death seems out of proportion to its importance: he's one of several hundred to die in the middle east, none of whom we want to see dead.

Well, except that one guy who begged and pleaded with the little sister of a friend of mine to have sex with him, and said he'd love her forever, and then told all his friends, never acknowledged her again, and laughed when he saw that someone spray painted "whore" on her locker.

OK, I made that up, but the automatic sainthood of everyone who died in 9-11 or while in military service kinda irks me, too. It's not unlike the "die in war, get virgins in heaven, no matter what else you did during life" thing.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Yes. And there was somethign in the news about a TX company giving his family a special gift or something -- I think there are more than enough TX casualties to whose families gifts could be given, they don't need to go adopt the family getting the most media coverage yet.

If it's the same story I am thinking of, it was the right thing to do. Donruss (a company that makes football and baseball player cards) had a collectable deal where they would take a player's game worn jersey and shred it into a bunch of small pieces, and sell it with the player's card. They discovered that they had one of Tillman's jerseys that hadn't been shredded, and -- rather than capitalizing on the situation, and doing what they were planning on doing before he was killed -- the company's head guy decided to give the jersey to Tillman's family.

And it is big news -- a professional athlete hasn't been killed in combat in 30 plus years.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Sure. Ted Williams's death was news regardless of how it happened (or what happened to his head). Pat Tillman's death would not have been (unless he died of 'roids). That was really teh point of my distinction (although I guess you got it).

The point isn't the sacrifice being made. To me, anyone going into combat is making a sizable sacrifice, and he was to be lauded when he enlisted as making an uncommon one. And I'm pretty sure he was at the time. But the degree of lionization since his death seems out of proportion to its importance: he's one of several hundred to die in the middle east, none of whom we want to see dead.

Why does the media make such a big deal out of the death of David Bloom in Iraq from a pulmonary embolism? Just a week or two ago, they were remembering his death. My question is, who the fuck was he?

This is a problem with the media and our celebrity-obsessed culture.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
but the automatic sainthood of everyone who died in 9-11 or while in military service kinda irks me, too.

Uhoh. Isn't speaking ill of anything relating to 9/11 like raising Hitler in an argument?

If not, I always thought the world trade center was an architectural eyesore.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I'm sorry, I was unaware of all the casualties sustained by members of the Alabama Air National Guard. Educate me, oh wise one.

(Additional statistics on casualties sustained by those who didn't report for duty would also be appreciated. Did Bush win a Purple Heart for that trip to the dentist?)

You want a hard-and-fast rule that the military service of your candidate must be respected in totality, with no questioning as to individual facets of his experience, but you want the freedom to parse someone else's, who coincidently is a candidate that you despise.

Oh, yes, guide me, nonhypocritical one.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Not Bob

And it is big news -- a professional athlete hasn't been killed in combat in 30 plus years.

When was the last time a school teacher was killed in combat?

What makes it newsworthy simply because he was an athlete? Not a star athlete, just a work-a-day player for a terrible football team.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Not Bob
If it's the same story I am thinking of, it was the right thing to do. Donruss (a company that makes football and baseball player cards) had a collectable deal where they would take a player's game worn jersey and shred it into a bunch of small pieces, and sell it with the player's card. They discovered that they had one of Tillman's jerseys that hadn't been shredded, and -- rather than capitalizing on the situation, and doing what they were planning on doing before he was killed -- the company's head guy decided to give the jersey to Tillman's family.

I confess, I didn't watch the story (the lead story was something related to child abuse involving excessive heat and feces, and after that I wanted some escapist reading. If that was the story, I will agree it was a nice thing to do. I would say it's not newsworthy, but then, most things on the late news aren't newsworthy.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
When was the last time a school teacher was killed in combat?

What makes it newsworthy simply because he was an athlete? Not a star athlete, just a work-a-day player for a terrible football team.

It is newsworthy because it is rare nowadays when someone who lives a life of privilege and luxury and celebrity voluntarily enlists in the armed services and then pays the ultimate price.

That said, this is a story because people like those who post on the FB predominate in this society. Idiots who care about reality TV and sports figures and spend far too much of their time idolizing and contemplating these celebrities.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by bilmore
You want a hard-and-fast rule that the military service of your candidate must be respected in totality, with no questioning as to individual facets of his experience, but you want the freedom to parse someone else's, who coincidently is a candidate that you despise.

Oh, yes, guide me, nonhypocritical one.

Simple enough. I respect those who were willing to go to war for their country.

I do not respect those who gamed the system in order to stay in a domestic guard unit because they knew that, under the circumstances that existed at the time, that would effectively preclude them from ever seeing combat. I do not disrespect them, I understand that choice and not being in their shoes cannot say I wouldn't have made the same choice. But equating them with those who actually went to war is absurd.

Not showing up for duty is another issue entirely, of course.

Nor do I respect Clinton's decision to avoid military service. Again, I don't disrespect it. But if he were to have spoken about Bush I's military service in the same way the Repubs speak about Kerry's, I would have had the same objections.


I have already said that I think it is fair and appropriate for people to question the specific facts of Kerry's service, particularly the "atrocities" claim. I have noted that the brouhaha over the "medals" story is his own fault. It is actually possible to do that without pretending that he did not serve his country courageously.


eta: timely speech by Lautenberg. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...rry/index.html


The part about Cleland losing three legs is..... weird.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I'm sorry, I was unaware of all the casualties sustained by members of the Alabama Air National Guard. Educate me, oh wise one.

(Additional statistics on casualties sustained by those who didn't report for duty would also be appreciated. Did Bush win a Purple Heart for that trip to the dentist?)

Service related deaths per 1000 in vietnam and for US based air Nat'l Guard duty probably weren't dramatically different (of course this risk would require that Bush did show up for training flights).

3 soldiers died yesterday in a helicopter crash, not in Sunni Triangle, in S. Carolina. 1/3 of all deaths in Iraq are non-combat related.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
When was the last time a school teacher was killed in combat?

What makes it newsworthy simply because he was an athlete? Not a star athlete, just a work-a-day player for a terrible football team.

Hey, I'm not arguing that school teachers are less valuable than football players. Far from it.

It is news because he was a professional athlete. This is a person who -- even though he was a "work-a-day player for a terrible football team" -- had reached the pinnacle of his profession, and gave up that profession after 9/11.

He had been told that he was too small to play college football, then had been told that he was too small to play pro football, then had been told that he was too old to become a Ranger. All this makes his story that much more compelling.

If he had been a .200 utility infielder for the Expos, it would be news. If he had been an actor on "General Hospital," it would have been news. Like it or not, America is consumed by celebrity, and the fact that some NFL player was killed in combat is news. His death is no sadder than the death of the 19 year old Marine from East Podunkville last week, but that's not the way these things work.