Politics: J'accuse!

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
But surely this can't be tolerated much longer.

Without trying to trivialize the sentiment that caused you to post this, let me say just three things.

First, you're right to think that this is a horrible thing. Kids shouldn't have to die like that. No one should. No parent should ever see their kid die an unnatural death, and that's what's happening. There should be no place for violence among thinking people, and I don't know anyone who doesn't hate this side of it all. But, how far do you take a non-violent stand? If you see a kid being beaten across the road, do you walk past quickly because you can't be violent, because violence is wrong and you refuse to add to it? What value do you serve when you do that? If there is a way to reconcile these moving and near-sacred pictures with the values we do hold, one would almost have to find a way to also post the pictures of the thousands, hundreds of thousands, really, of the cute young kids, and the new brides, and the proud first-time dads, and the hard-working shopkeepers, and the tired and frail grandparents, all of whom are now going to live, and live a much better life, because those other kids, our kids, gave their lives to free them from a despotic and murderous tyrant. Yeah, you have to take into account what those kids died FOR, not just OF. I think that any one of us, if we could have lost our life but killed Tim McVeigh in the process, would consider it a worthwhile thing. You have to consider the why, both to be able to view this with balance and full information, and to avoid cheapening those kids' sacrifice.

A sense of proportion also helps. There was a time when, between my friends and my relatives, we were going to one or two of those funerals every month. Personally, not just seeing the pictures. I can tell you when most of the big firefights and incursions happened by pulling out the old funeral handouts. 58,000 in that conflict. 600 (I think) in this one so far. During the time those 600 died, there were about 44,000 traffic deaths in this country. I don't mean for a minute to belittle what has happened to these kids. But this is not World War II. Proportion is important, if only to be able to accurately guage the loss against the freedoms and the lives that we hope to gain for the world, and for us.

Finally, I would hope that you wouldn't presume to use these kids' deaths in support of a belief that they may have strongly opposed. I once wore an antiwar symbol to a funeral of a friend's older brother. His mother, pretty much collapsing with grief, found the time and the will to take me aside and tell me that Roddie had believed in what he was doing, had told her that he knew the risks but, after coming across the third wasted village full of dead civilians in his first couple of weeks, knew he was in the right place. She told me that she hated the war as much as I did, but that I was showing a disrespect for something Roddie willingly and proudly gave his life for, and maybe I could just wear my jacket over the symbol? They may make convenient tokens, but things aren't always as simple as we'd like them to be.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Drop the blame Bush shit Ty. This is a big circle jerk. the nationwide changes necessary took months AFTER 9/11 to get approval. Clinton/Bush should have done ? before?

Hank -- it ain't the crime, its the cover-up. Just like Nixon, man! {Well, there it kind of was the crime too. And nobody died. that we know of. Anyway . . . }

Bottom line -- Fix the problem, not the blame. But don't fucking piss on me and tell me its raining. I don't like that.

S_A_M

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
That second quote makes more sense if you substitute "Ashcroft" for "People."

Only he didn't say Ashcroft and there are House members and Senate members who are calling for Gorelick to resign. Did Ashcroft call for her to resign?

[Skeks in the city]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop

Fuck you. I didn't quote that. I stuck to quoting dead Greeks.

Quote to it, link to it, same diff. Look it, the right of return can't work. There are simply too many people who hate each other to live in Israel. If the bloodshed in Israel or Palestine bothers Europe and Russia so much, they should cough up enough money to buy off the Israeli's or the Pali's. It's Europe's and Russia's fault anyway. They exported their Jews to Israel/Palestine and the territory simply isn't big enough for all involved.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by bilmore
Finally, I would hope that you wouldn't presume to use these kids' deaths in support of a belief that they may have strongly opposed.

I think that is a good point regarding the committment of this all volunteer military. I know the media is showing us the anger some of the family members are feeling, but it seems to me that the large majority believe in the mission.

I think of those 3 women who are sisters. Their sister was buried today and the military has stated that they don't have to go back to Iraq. Their parents don't want them to go back. Neither one yet has applied for the exemption. They may, but still I think that says alot. They are torn between their parent's wishes for them to stay in the US and their sense of duty and committment to their mission.

When I saw the piece on the injured 20 year old with no legs and no eyes, I also saw quite a few injured soldiers say they wanted to get back to Iraq to be there to help their platoon, division, etc.

I also saw some interviews of men signing up for civilian contract positions. In contrary to what the media would have you believe, several of them stated that they were ex-military and they wanted to get to Iraq to serve. Yes they were going to be getting paid more than active duty personnel, but several of them made it very clear that they wanted to go ot Iraq to help the military effort as best that they could.

I guess all these people could be full of shit and none of them believes in this war, but I think that many of them do see the value of what they are doing and feel committed to the cause. Not all, but by far most.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Skeks in the city
Look it, the right of return can't work. There are simply too many people who hate each other to live in Israel. If the bloodshed in Israel or Palestine bothers Europe and Russia so much, they should cough up enough money to buy off the Israeli's or the Pali's.

Amen. Holding up that empty and impossible dream is only going to make things worse in the long run. There is never going to be a return, but as long as Arafat or whoever keeps it up as a demand, the war will go on.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Skeks in the city
Quote to it, link to it, same diff.

No way, man. It was a cite for what I quoted.

Look it, the right of return can't work. There are simply too many people who hate each other to live in Israel. If the bloodshed in Israel or Palestine bothers Europe and Russia so much, they should cough up enough money to buy off the Israeli's or the Pali's. It's Europe's and Russia's fault anyway. They exported their Jews to Israel/Palestine and the territory simply isn't big enough for all involved.

Everyone knows this, but the question was what the deal was going to be that got the Palestinians to give it up.

Originally posted by bilmore
Amen. Holding up that empty and impossible dream is only going to make things worse in the long run. There is never going to be a return, but as long as Arafat or whoever keeps it up as a demand, the war will go on.

The impossible dream has to end through some kind of deal, not by Sharon's fiat. The latter is just going to perpetuate the sense of victimhood, not that it needed much help.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
'Nuff said.

GORELICK is the new polygamy! BE afraid!

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
The impossible dream has to end through some kind of deal, not by Sharon's fiat. The latter is just going to perpetuate the sense of victimhood, not that it needed much help.

Arafat has pumped up his people on that entitlement to the point where, even if he decided the time was ripe for a deal, he couldn't make it. He'd be assassinated in a week.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Not Me
And those are just the ones who are dead. I saw a piece not too long ago on the injured. A 20 year old who lost both his legs and both his eyes. Blind with no legs. At 20.

What are you proposing? I am seriously asking this because I don't have a good proposal to offer. I can tell you what needs to be done, i.e., put down the insurgency, train the Iraqis to be their own security force, rebuild the infrastructure, but don't know how it can be done faster with fewer lives lost. Do you?

Pulling out seems out of the question. The question I need an answer to is how to stay there and minimize deaths/injuries. Are more troops the answer?

If I propose anything, its now just blame for failure to plan and otherwise organize for direct elections and then a complete withdrawal. I've heard nothing about a national voter registration system, and it should've been started 2 months after the war ended. 26 million people is something like the population of CA. I'm at the point now where I see these pictures and I just see red while picturing Rumsfeld et al.

At the same time, I'm an advocate of heavy-handed tactics while we are there, including the heavier hand in Fallujah. At some point, our enemies there have to have a thought in the back of they're collective minds that they don't want us coming back.

But for constructive stuff, I said it 10 months ago and its still the answer I think. Pacify, organize elections (reminding --not allowing-- the Iraqis not to vote for people who invite war with us), and get the fuck out. All of that said, every one of those pictures tells a personal story that is a small piece of a national tragedy the U.S. is enduring. And one of my points is that its an excellent and responsible (not-editorializing) way for the NYT or any other outlet to remind us of one of the most important parts of the story... the true cost to our nation. Its like that thing about let the truth be told though the heavens may fall. This truth hurts some small part of our nation a great deal every time. And fuuuuck if I'll patiently listen to someone badmouthing the new generation of young people. These kids are alright.

Hello

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone_Slothrop
Fuck you. I didn't quote that. I stuck to quoting dead Greeks.

No, you linked to it. And since you didn't preface it with "what a dick" - one can only assume you were in agreement.

On a more important matter, you wanna wager dinner on tomorrow's game? PM me or post or whatever.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Arafat has pumped up his people on that entitlement to the point where, even if he decided the time was ripe for a deal, he couldn't make it. He'd be assassinated in a week.

You won't see me defending Arafat. The Palestinians have most definitely been let down by their leaders, none of whom have ever paved the way for peace.

[SlaveNoMore]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
You won't see me defending Arafat. The Palestinians have most definitely been let down by their leaders, none of whom have ever paved the way for peace.

I've seen nothing to suggest they would ever want - or accept - "peace".

The whole notion is nothing but mere projection by Americans and Europeans because this is what WE want.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Skeks in the city
Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop

It's Europe's and Russia's fault anyway. They exported their Jews to Israel/Palestine

I think it is the fault of the Romans who exiled the jews from their homes in the promised land in the first place.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by bilmore
But, how far do you take a non-violent stand? ... You have to consider the why, both to be able to view this with balance and full information, and to avoid cheapening those kids' sacrifice.
...
A sense of proportion also helps.
...
Finally, I would hope that you wouldn't presume to use these kids' deaths in support of a belief that they may have strongly opposed.

I am not non-violent, and my experiences have been that such stands are absurd. For example, I'm against orthodox Jews in Israel being allowed to live in settlements while their children are exempt from military service. And, I'm still in favor of the overall concept of dealing with Iraq militarily at the time we did so (well, maybe after the 3rd ID got there after having been denied entry through Turkey).

As for the proportion, I can't help but think we won't tolerate the kind of pace you described at least until Vietnam is long gone from our collective memory. It was before my time, but 10/day for a few weeks and I'd rather see the B-52s return to the region before one more of our kids is sacrificed. So, all I'm saying is that its a good experience to familiarize oneself with the cost, regardless of one's position. Believe me, I'm not lecturing you or anyone else about how we should feel in view of the costs, though I'm serious when I say I doubt that the nation will stand for 80 or 90 pictures a month for too many months.

Lastly, I'm with the kids that believe they are doing something important. I'm not using the kids deaths to support any political belief... except maybe that they wouldn't have occurred if our leadership had been a bit better organized about this stuff.

However, in no way do I question the value and importance of the efforts these kids are making. But it would be horrible to ignore the question of whether we could have collectively paid a lower price to accomplish whatever the plan is for there.


Hello