Politics: J'accuse!

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I don't know if we have any of those left anymore, especially since Bush came out in support of the Sharon plan and just up and volunteered positions on other issues (i.e. right of return, West Bank Settlements) which changed the "declared" U.S. positions for the past 30 years and planted us pretty firmly on Israel's side.

This may all fit well with what I perceive as your belief that the only chance to solve this mess is to compel the Palestinian militants to eat another pound or two of shit and like it (or lump it). Maybe you're right. I'm not so sure.

As to Hank -- yes, this course of action is most decidedly a bold move on Bush's part. Every Arab state is even more pissed off at us than they already were. Maybe it will all work out. Not optimistic.

S_A_M

Are you Peter's sock?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
It may well be good tactics for the senior Bush surrogates (including recently Cheney and Karen Hughes) to have been hitting Kerry over both his service and his anti-war positions. They want to at least neutralize or muddy up a potential plus for Kerry, whether or not it is a bit unseemly.

Bottom line is that the GOP -- party of muscular patriotism -- has had to adjust to the fact that, with the exception of Bush I and Dole, the GOP nominees since Eisenhower have usually faced Democratic candidates who matched or outclassed them, in terms of actual military service to the nation.

S_A_M

[I know, club, I know, the Gipper made some fantastic training films.]

This is great spin. Any time Kerry is challenged on foreign policy he (and his surrogates) quickly changes the subject and yell and scream that his patriotism is being questioned. The challenge is not to his patriotism, it is to his proclivity for political expediency, which is a well-developed and supported theme for the Bush campaign.

Point of fact - the Gipper was a Democrat during his war time service.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
You don't think Kerry's military record is a positive in comparison to Bush II?

It would have been, had he not muddied it with (a) his post war associations, and (b) his voting record in the Senate.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
You people are pathetic.

You're in a mood, huh?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch


Remember all the Repubs calling Clinton a "draft dodger" because he dared to go to graduate school instead of Vietnam?

Clinton's conduct in evading eligibility through the draft through political connections, deft timing of student deferments, and ultimately registration after it no longer placed him in peril is well below both Kerry, who served, and Bush, who joined the reserves as was completely acceptable as an alternative at the time.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by sgtclub
The challenge is not to his patriotism . . .

This is true, for several reasons. Back then, there was no clear and easy answer to the question of, do you serve patriotism by blindly and mindlessly following orders from a government that was roundly suspected as being venal and corrupt and willing to sacrifice lives, american and otherwise, for monetary gain, or by fighting for peacable values? (We didn't know then what we know now about VN, Cambodia, etc.) To call an antiwar protestor, or even a soldier-turned-antiwar-activist, "unpatriotic" is to so oversimplify the whole mess as to make it meaningless. So, to me, none of Kerry's stands, changing as they seemed to do, impugn his honor, or his character, or his suitability to lead.

But he strikes me in many ways as another Clinton, in that every position he extolled, every stand he made, and every action he took were designed to make him a better political candidate, from the very first. I can accept changes of heart, but not when they aren't truly changes of heart, but are instead changes of tactics in the quest for the same goal.

And he should have just said "I lied about the medals". It would have been over.

But, by far, my biggest gripe about Kerry is that, after being THE MOST LIBERAL politician (well, except for Wellstone, maybe) for years, he's running as if he's a moderate. He's not. If he thinks that the people want a liberal, and if he plans on governing like a liberal once he wins, he should run as one. If he tries to be a moderate only for the election, he's subverting the idea of an election. At least with Bush, you know what he's going to be the day after tomorrow. You may not like it, but you can vote based on that accurate knowledge. Kerry comes off as knowing his stands wouldn't win an election, but being egotistical enough to think that he knows what we need more so than do the voters.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by bilmore
At least with Bush, you know what he's going to be the day after tomorrow.

A uniter not a divider who will end partisan politics in Washington?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
A uniter not a divider who will end partisan politics in Washington?

Well, for starters, he probably couldn't pronounce that entire sentence correctly the first time.

(And I should back off a bit, as his stand seemed to at least imply fiscal conservatism, and we see where THAT went.)

[sgtclub]

This is directed at Ty:

Have you read Woodward's book yet? It seems to dismantle the "Bush Lied" mantra in its entirety. Thoughts?

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by bilmore


(And I should back off a bit, as his stand seemed to at least imply fiscal conservatism, and we see where THAT went.)

Do you understand how confusing this is for a fiscally conservative but socially/culturally liberal young man? My god.

My head spins.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
This is great spin. Any time Kerry is challenged on foreign policy he (and his surrogates) quickly changes the subject and yell and scream that his patriotism is being questioned.

Now that you mention all this, I'm actually happy I'm in a state where no one will bother to run ads related to the presidential election. The one side screams "anti-American traitor wuss!" at every turn and the other side screams "you are questioning my patriotism!!" at every turn. Fun.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Now that you mention all this, I'm actually happy I'm in a state where no one will bother to run ads related to the presidential election. The one side screams "anti-American traitor wuss!" at every turn and the other side screams "you are questioning my patriotism!!" at every turn. Fun.

Ditto. Haven't seen a single ad. 6 months away and I'm already sick of this shit w/out the ads.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Do you understand how confusing this is for a fiscally conservative but socially/culturally liberal young man? My god.

My head spins.

It's not that confusing. You should at least have one of your urges satisfied.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
What a fucking joke. If Bush (or any prominent Repub) had served in the military and Kerry had not, you people would be screaming about it incessantly.

Remember all the Repubs calling Clinton a "draft dodger" because he dared to go to graduate school instead of Vietnam? You people are pathetic.

My point was that the "Clinton was a draft dodger" argument failed, because it was an argument created for a person from some age other than Vietnam age. If Clinton had done what he did to avoid WW 2, the argument would have had a greater appeal. As it was, people who were actually faced with going to Vietnam (back then it wasn't the 3rd leg in that Oriental Sex Tour we're looking at for June SS) know that it was not a clear cut decision. Most people who did go throught the draft probably looked for a way out, and couldn't blame someone who got out. Hence, Bubba the Prez.

There is no reason to think it'll play any different this time. Kerry is trying to sell his time as pointing to a better perspective on military. I'd say 4 years making decisions as C in C trumps a few months on a boat, but that is an aside.

Kerry going to Vietnam, even if for contrived reason, is admirable. Bush getting into the Nat'l Guard is at least meeting his obligations. as bilmore said, with perspective, no one who was in the "decision age" would blame any of the decisions, even Billy's.

bilmore, too modestly to my way of thinking, omits his own labors cultivating mushrooms for some of the steering committee meetings of the Mn. SDS Chapter- I believe this may be because he's having trouble documenting attendance at some of those.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Ditto. Haven't seen a single ad. 6 months away and I'm already sick of this shit w/out the ads.

Another reason I'm happy to have Tivo. I haven't seen an ad for anything in months. Unless someoen's hawking something on the Daily Show, I'm not going to see it.