Politics: J'accuse!

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Any other life lessons we should be taking from the ol' CCCP?

I just need clarity about which aspects of life under an oppressive regime are universally contemptible, and which of them befuddle you with these moral ambiguities.

Now one of our favorite free-marketers is admiring the communists (big government!). I would imagine similar tactics might be used by the fascists (also, lots o' government) and, indeed, Saddam's regime.

BTW, I think the second "Soviets" in his post should be "kidnappers" or it just seems like they are helping the kidnappers torture the kidnapped Soviet. Perhaps on the theory that if the Soviet has let himself be kidnapped, he must be a traitor. Which is in turn akin to how you can't be raped and live, because if you don't fight to the death, you actually wanted to have sex.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm thinking that the Soviets would send back pieces of a family member of the kidnapper. Although cutting up your own family members to prove that the kidnappers have no leverage over you might be effective, too. In this country, kidnappers have figured out that it's better not to let people know your name or mailing address, thereby frustrating these tactics. This sort of ingenuity is how we won the Cold War.

Now now Ty, I'm sure he meant kidnapped by terrorist organizations like the CIA or whatever.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Any other life lessons we should be taking from the ol' CCCP?

I just need clarity about which aspects of life under an oppressive regime are universally contemptible, and which of them befuddle you with these moral ambiguities.

Right now I'm at:

• Economic policy = bad and wrong;
  De-thumbing = Justified on a case-by-case basis.

Fair point.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
BTW, I think the second "Soviets" in his post should be "kidnappers" or it just seems like they are helping the kidnappers torture the kidnapped Soviet. Perhaps on the theory that if the Soviet has let himself be kidnapped, he must be a traitor. Which is in turn akin to how you can't be raped and live, because if you don't fight to the death, you actually wanted to have sex.

I would say STP, but you end with a twist that I couldn't have gotten out of it. Huh.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I would say STP, but you end with a twist that I couldn't have gotten out of it. Huh.

My post hit within 2 minutes of yours (and that's generous). I was still writing when you hit submit reply, and I wasn't sitting on my hands about it either. So shut your yap.

Plus, I'm more interesting and creative than you are. Plus, you had a similar phrasing problem to club's -- the government was cutting up the family members in his phrasing, and you referred to "your own family." Comrade does not imply a familial relationship.

Plus Plus.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Plus, I'm more interesting and creative than you are.

This was my point.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Although cutting up your own family members to prove that the kidnappers have no leverage over you might be effective, too.

thats what kysor sose did.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Any other life lessons we should be taking from the ol' CCCP?

I just need clarity about which aspects of life under an oppressive regime are universally contemptible, and which of them befuddle you with these moral ambiguities.

Right now I'm at:

• Economic policy = bad and wrong;
  De-thumbing = Justified on a case-by-case basis.

don't get too excited. I think Club's complimenting the commies might simply be his way of kissing up to you and Ty and trying to make peace.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
don't get too excited. I think Club's complimenting the commies might simply be his way of kissing up to you and Ty and trying to make peace.

You don't see al qaeda flying planes into the Kremlin, now do you.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
You don't see al qaeda flying planes into the Kremlin, now do you.

They can't steer the planes without their thumbs?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sgtclub
You don't see al qaeda flying planes into the Kremlin, now do you.

They might if the Kremlin still mattered much. No, AQ is presently contenting themselves with activity in Chechnya (possible strikes into Russia), and activities in several of the former Soviet states.

They don't have time for anything else. We are, at least, keeping them busy.

S_A_M

[edited for spelling and one comma]

[ltl/fb]

Yes, I know, he was speaking somewhat off the cuff, but I think that inclusion of the bolded phrase indicates an underlying attitude. Rumsfeld, per CNN

"If there's a failure, it's me. It's my failure for not understanding and knowing that there were hundreds -- or however many there are of these things -- that could eventually end up in the public and do the damage they've done," Rumsfeld said, talking about photographs of the abuse.

Also, per NYT (dunno if he was speaking off the cuff):

Mr. Bush, campaigning today in Dubuque, Iowa, said, "The abhorrent pictures on our TV screens have stained our honor. They do not reflect the nature of the men and women we have sent overseas. We've sent decent, compassionate, honorable, sacrificing citizens."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/07/po...=all&position=

I think it was the abhorrent acts that stained our honor, not the fact that pictures of the acts made it onto TV. One's honor can be stained even if no one else knows of the honor-staining event.

Also from the CNN article:

"There are other photos -- many other photos -- that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman," Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "And I am advised there also are videos of these actions."

. . .

He insisted that the abuse reports were being handled properly. Rumsfeld said he did not see the photographs until they were broadcast, saying they were part of the "investigative process."

. . .

"I failed to recognize how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including the president and the members of Congress," Rumsfeld said.

. . .

Several senators criticized Rumsfeld for not briefing them about the abuse reports. While Rumsfeld said he wished he had done a better job, he also pointed to a January 16 press release from U.S. Central Command in Baghdad that had said an investigation had been launched into reports of "detainee abuse."

[Press release, in its entirety:

DETAINEE TREATMENT INVESTIGATION

BAGHDAD, Iraq – An investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility. The release of specific information concerning the incidents could hinder the investigation, which is in its early stages. The investigation will be conducted in a thorough and professional manner. The Coalition is committed to treating all persons under its control with dignity, respect and humanity. Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the Commanding General, has reiterated this requirement to all members of CJTF-7.

]

. . .

Rumsfeld said the hearings and the ongoing investigations were a testament to the true character of the United States -- as opposed to the photographs of the abuse.

"Judge us by our actions," he said. "Watch how Americans, watch how democracy deals with wrongdoing and scandal and the pain of acknowledging and correcting our own mistakes and, indeed, our own weaknesses."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ain/index.html

I guess he is a wussy wimp boy, though, for calling what is depicted in the pictures "wrongdoing."

[Not Me]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I guess he is a wussy wimp boy, though, for calling what is depicted in the pictures "wrongdoing."

See, this is the shit that is so fucking annoying. If there was sodomy and murder, that is more that wrongdoing, it is a terrible crime. Nothing fucking like that was in the pictures.

Yeah, what was in the pictures was wrongdoing. It was abusive behavior. That is it.

JFC. Get some fucking perspective.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Not Me
See, this is the shit that is so fucking annoying. If there was sodomy and murder, that is more that wrongdoing, it is a terrible crime. Nothing fucking like that was in the pictures.

Yeah, what was in the pictures was wrongdoing. It was abusive behavior. That is it.

JFC. Get some fucking perspective.

Um, I think even Rumsfeld, in today's testimony, stated that more, and worse, pictures (and video) were out there.

Before swinging for the fences at the critics, you may want to wait and see what pitch is coming.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Not Me
JFC. Get some fucking perspective.

No, because the perspective you, Clubby and Bilmore urge is that as long as we don't fly airliners into buildings, we've got the high ground.

Look, there's something about prisons. There is a code of behavior we expect of people when they've got someone incapacitated and at our mercy. We broke that code. Being incredibly upset that we did that while supposedly liberating the country from tyranny is not a loss of perspective --- if anything, it's a superior sense of perspective.

A corrections officer I met once told me that every morning he looks into the mirror before heading off to work and says, "As punishment, not for punishment." It reminds him that in our society --- or any civilized society, which should include the CPA --- people are being punished by being imprisoned. Otherwise, you start to think that a prison is a venue in which more deserved punishments get imposed. They're not there to be punished; they're punished by being there, nothing more. Otherwise your thinking leads to looking the other way when your fellow man is being shivved or raped, because, shit, he should have stayed out of prison by not committing a crime in the first damn place.

Oh, then there's the fact that "resistance fighters" need to be incapacitated, not punished. We draw the distinction between criminals and combatants for a reason that's ultimately self-interested. Your inability to grasp this makes Jesus cry.