Politics: J'accuse!

[Atticus Grinch]

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Yes, I know, he was speaking somewhat off the cuff, but I think that inclusion of the bolded phrase indicates an underlying attitude. Rumsfeld, per CNN

"If there's a failure, it's me. It's my failure for not understanding and knowing that there were hundreds -- or however many there are of these things -- that could eventually end up in the public and do the damage they've done," Rumsfeld said, talking about photographs of the abuse.

Since AG started the stealing from Wonkette, here's a related cheap shot:

You can ask the White House anything, and sometimes they answer:

Q: Tom from Camano Island, WA:

• How could this Country who is supposed to represent all that is right in the World allow the treatment of prisoners to happen as reported in our newspapers today? Swift and sure action must be taken to correct this situation (if true).

A: Dr. Condoleezza Rice, National Security Advisor:

• . . . Those pictures were awful because America -- American men and women in uniform, active and reserve, are serving in Iraq at great sacrifice. People are losing their lives. We came there to help to liberate the people of Iraq. We came there to build schools, and to build clinics, and we want very much that the images of Americans should be the images of helping the Iraqi people.

You hear that? Someone screwed up and released the wrong images. It's like during the civil rights movement. The protesters kept emphasizing the lynchings and the angry mobs; they never showed photos of the terrific restrooms and water fountains the white folks so thoughtfully provided. You can see how people got the wrong idea.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Um, I think even Rumsfeld, in today's testimony, stated that more, and worse, pictures (and video) were out there.

I heard the same thing, and when those pics come out or get described to me, then we can discuss those pictures. Was she discussing those pictures? If so, how does she know what is in them? Do you know what is in them?

My point was and is that in the pictures I have seen so far, I have seen things that are abusive, but that is it. They are wrongdoings.

She was calling Rummy names because he referred to the pictures as wrongdoings. That is all that is in the pictures. Does she have inside information on what is in the yet-to-be-released pictures?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Not Me
I heard the same thing, and when those pics come out or get described to me, then we can discuss those pictures. Was she discussing those pictures? If so, how does she know what is in them? Do you know what is in them?

My point was and is that in the pictures I have seen so far, I have seen things that are abusive, but that is it. They are wrongdoings.

She was calling Rummy names because he referred to the pictures as wrongdoings. That is all that is in the pictures. Does she have inside information on what is in the yet-to-be-released pictures?

No, I don't have an inside track on abusive media. What I was pointing out is that Bush and Rumsfeld seem to be wanting to be perceived as saying that they believe the behavior by Americans in the pictures is horrible and bad and wrong, but they keep fucking up and indicating that what they really think the bad thing is, is that pictures of the behavior got out.

Hence, my subject line: It only counts if you get caught.

ETA The implication with the "wussy boy" comment was not that Rumsfeld should be calling it something stronger than wrongdoing. The "wussy boy" remark was that if Rumsfeld were a real man, he wouldn't be saying there was any wrongdoing at all. If the people are being detained, they deserve what they get. Thus, by saying that the actions depicted in the pictures was wrong (he said that too, when he was paying attention and not saying what he actually thought) he was being a big wimpy wuss-ball. He should be a man and say there is no wrongdoing. He'd stand up and say if I didn't need to be here acting in an executive capacity, I'd go to Iraq, order naked detainees to make a human pyramid, and point and laugh at them myself!

I was being "sarcastic."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
She was calling Rummy names because he referred to the pictures as wrongdoings. That is all that is in the pictures. Does she have inside information on what is in the yet-to-be-released pictures?

Her point, which may have eluded you, is that Rummy phrased things to make it sound as if the problem is that there are pictures, not that the underlying wrongdoings were done.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
No, because the perspective you, Clubby and Bilmore urge is that as long as we don't fly airliners into buildings, we've got the high ground.

That is a ridiculous gross mischaracterization of what was said. No one said that this wasn't wrongdoing and abusive.

What was said, over and over again, is that this isn't what should be called torture. That is fucking ridiculous.

Wrong? Yes. Torture? No.

As for "us" having the high ground, I don't know about you but I didn't do those acts and I don't condone them. I agree that they should be investigated and appropriate action taken. I do have the high ground and I have perspective, too.

Now if someone was sodomized or beaten to death in custody, that is a terrible crime and again, I am for investigation and punishment and action to prevent this from happening again.

How is that not the high ground?

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Look, there's something about prisons. There is a code of behavior we expect of people when they've got someone incapacitated and at our mercy. We broke that code. Being incredibly upset that we did that while supposedly liberating the country from tyranny is not a loss of perspective --- if anything, it's a superior sense of perspective.

Who is this "we" you talk about? If you can show me evidence that this was pervasive in military culture or sanctioned by higher ups and routine, then I would again be for quick changes and firings and punishment.

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
A corrections officer I met once told me that every morning he looks into the mirror before heading off to work and says, "As punishment, not for punishment." It reminds him that in our society --- or any civilized society, which should include the CPA --- people are being punished by being imprisoned. Otherwise, you start to think that a prison is a venue in which more deserved punishments get imposed. They're not there to be punished; they're punished by being there, nothing more. Otherwise your thinking leads to looking the other way when your fellow man is being shivved or raped, because, shit, he should have stayed out of prison by not committing a crime in the first damn place.

But what does that have to do with the Iraqi detainees being abused and the ridiculous claims that what was in those pictures rose to the level of torture?

All those Arabs screaming "torture" were for leaving Saddam in place. He used to murder, rape, hack off limbs/tongues, put people in wood choppers feet first, throw them off of high buildings - now that is torture. Where was the outrage in the Arab world about that?

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Oh, then there's the fact that "resistance fighters" need to be incapacitated, not punished. We draw the distinction between criminals and combatants for a reason that's ultimately self-interested. Your inability to grasp this makes Jesus cry.

What are talking about here? Are you talking about a battle situation or a POW situation? You aren't clear.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Her point, which may have eluded you, is that Rummy phrased things to make it sound as if the problem is that there are pictures, not that the underlying wrongdoings were done.

I watched the hearings and that is not at all what Rummy said and not at all how he characterized it. He said over and over again that it was wrong and needed to be investigated and dealt with. He repeatedly said things like he was sickened by what was in the pictures and that this wasn't what our military was about.

His point about the picturres was that he didn't grasp just how bad it was until he saw the pictures himself. Can you argue he should have seen them earlier? You bet you.

His point was that when you read the reports, you don't get the full impact. It is the pictures that bring it all home.

I happen to agree with him. It is the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words.

I am the one who is advocating banning cameras by soldiers in war zones.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Not Me
That is a ridiculous gross mischaracterization of what was said. No one said that this wasn't wrongdoing and abusive.

What was said, over and over again, is that this isn't what should be called torture. That is fucking ridiculous.

Wrong? Yes. Torture? No.

No, they said stuff like, "they deserve whatever they get," "worse things happen to people in routine DWI arrests" and other things that indicated that they were saying more than just, it wasn't, strictly speaking, torture. And club continued his statements after it had been revealed that there are homicide investigations relating to deaths of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of American military and individuals contracted to the American military.

Maybe there is a way of killing someone during interrogation that isn't torture, but it seems more than "wrong."

Why the hell am I responding? I need a drink. Or food. Or coffee.

etft -- T.S.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
That is a ridiculous gross mischaracterization of what was said. No one said that this wasn't wrongdoing and abusive.

What was said, over and over again, is that this isn't what should be called torture. That is fucking ridiculous.

Wrong? Yes. Torture? No.

What's the worst thing you think they did? Just trying to be clear what isn't torture.

If you can show me evidence that this was pervasive in military culture or sanctioned by higher ups and routine, then I would again be for quick changes and firings and punishment.

Does this cut it?

• "According to eye witnesses to debate at the highest levels of the Administration...whenever Powell or [Richard] Armitage sought to question prisoner treatment issues, they were forced to endure what our source characterizes as 'around the table, coarse, vulgar, frat-boy bully remarks about what these tough guys would do if THEY ever got their hands on prisoners....'
  
  -- let's be clear: our source is not alleging "orders" from the White House. Our source is pointing out that, as we said in the Summary, a fish rots from its head. The atmosphere created by Rumsfeld's controversial decisions was apparently aided and abetted by his colleagues in their callous disregard for the implications of the then-developing situation, and by their ridicule of the only combat veterans at the top of this Administration.

from the Nelson Report, via TPM

All those Arabs screaming "torture" were for leaving Saddam in place. He used to murder, rape, hack off limbs/tongues, put people in wood choppers feet first, throw them off of high buildings - now that is torture. Where was the outrage in the Arab world about that?

I thought the administration line was that the international community was with us and wanted Saddam out. Boy, it's so hard keeping track of the conservative rationalizations.

And the chipper shredder thing? That's what they do in Minnesota. I've seen video. Take it up with bilmore.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
I watched the hearings and that is not at all what Rummy said and not at all how he characterized it. He said over and over again that it was wrong and needed to be investigated and dealt with. He repeatedly said things like he was sickened by what was in the pictures and that this wasn't what our military was about.

His point about the picturres was that he didn't grasp just how bad it was until he saw the pictures himself. Can you argue he should have seen them earlier? You bet you.

His point was that when you read the reports, you don't get the full impact. It is the pictures that bring it all home.

I happen to agree with him. It is the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Since fringey and Wonkette both acknowledge that they were taken Rummy slightly out of context, you are beating the wrong dead horse.

I am the one who is advocating banning cameras by soldiers in war zones.

Yes. Better that none of us see how ugly it is in war zones. Better that the news stick to the President landing on a carrier off San Diego, etc.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
"If there's a failure, it's me. It's my failure for not understanding and knowing that there were hundreds -- or however many there are of these things -- that could eventually end up in the public and do the damage they've done," Rumsfeld said, talking about photographs of the abuse.

That is what happens when you don't actually see the hearings but rely on the liberal media to extract quotes out of context.

That answer came about in a discussion of what damage the pictures had done to our military efforts. The Senator who asked this was specifically questioning Rummy about the damage the pictures did. That is why he was talking about the pictures as opposed to the abuses.

If you have TIVO or know someone who does, watch the hearings.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Since fringey and Wonkette both acknowledge that they were taken Rummy slightly out of context, you are beating the wrong dead horse.

well. at least they are honest about their intellectual dishonesty.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yes. Better that none of us see how ugly it is in war zones. Better that the news stick to the President landing on a carrier off San Diego, etc.

Better for our front line soldiers that pictures like that don't get published. The people who did this weren't on the front lines, but it is the front line soldiers who are the most likely to take the heat for this.

Now we have this assclown Sadr talking about enslaving captured women. Fucking muslims and their hatred for women. What a filthy religion.

I didn't say that I advocate continuing the abuses. I don't. Just get the fucking cameras out of the hands of jackasses.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Not Me
That is what happens when you don't actually see the hearings but rely on the liberal media to extract quotes out of context.

That answer came about in a discussion of what damage the pictures had done to our military efforts. The Senator who asked this was specifically questioning Rummy about the damage the pictures did. That is why he was talking about the pictures as opposed to the abuses.

If you have TIVO or know someone who does, watch the hearings.

blah de blah blah.

That was funny about the being in favor of not allowing anyone in any part of Iraq to ever have any kind of camera, tape recorder, videocamera, digital recorder, or anything else. Is Scalia your bf?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
Fucking muslims and their hatred for women. What a filthy religion.

This is from today's SF Chronicle:


Nigerian Muslims flee town ravaged by militants from Christian tribe

SUNDAY ALAMBA, Associated Press Writer
Friday, May 7, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(05-07) 11:31 PDT YELWA, Nigeria (AP) --

Injured, hungry and grieving Muslims abandoned their central Nigerian town Friday amid stalled efforts to mediate a conflict that has left an estimated 500 dead in attacks by fighters of a predominantly Christian tribe.

"They came from God, they go back to God," 49-year-old Jumai Isa said of her husband and five children, shot and hacked to death by men wearing charcoal body paint and bandanas. "Now I want to go away."

A Red Cross team visiting Yelwa estimated Thursday that there were "500 to 600 killed" by Christian Tarok-speakers during attacks Sunday and Tuesday, team leader Umar Abdu Mairiga said.

He cited witness reports and an inspection of a mass grave site that Hausa-speaking Muslim residents said contained at least 280 bodies.

The Christian Tarok farmers and predominantly Muslim Hausa traders and cattle herdsmen have launched back-and-forth raids since more than 1,000 people were killed in an outbreak of religious violence in the previously peaceful city of Jos in September 2001.

Religious, ethnic and political enmities have fueled outbreaks of communal bloodshed that have left more than 10,000 dead since President Olusegun Obasanjo's 1999 election ended 15 years of repressive military rule in Africa's most populous nation.

The assailants in this week's attacks used cans of kerosene to burn hundreds, possibly thousands of homes and vehicles and several mosques in Yelwa, 210 miles east of the capital of Abuja.

One hundred people were reported missing, many of them women and children who allegedly were abducted by the fighters, Mairiga said.

Some Christians also reportedly were killed. Nanman Anthony, a 35-year-old Tarok farmer, said Hausa fighters cut him on the back and head with machetes, then left him for dead. Another Tarok man carried him to nearby Shendam, a Christian community.

Nigerian Red Cross head Emmanuel Ijewere said Friday the organization was unable to determine a firm death toll and could only verify that 7,500 residents had been evacuated from Yelwa and surrounding villages.

Police, who traditionally play down casualties to stem retaliatory attacks, said just 80 were confirmed killed.

In February, Muslim militants were blamed for killing nearly 50 people in Yelwa, including many victims slain while they were seeking refuge in a church.

An emergency mediation committee intended to bring together rival leaders suffered a setback after Obasanjo named a prominent Muslim religious leader Thursday to head the panel, drawing condemnation from Christians who constitute the majority in the central state of Plateau, where the attacks occurred.

"We are not quarreling with the panel, only the man who is heading it," said Samuel Salifu, leader of the region's Christian association.

Christian Tarok- and Berom-speaking politicians have accused Muslims of hiring ex-rebels from neighboring Chad to conduct deadly raids. Hausa-speaking Muslim leaders say their rivals obtained weapons and funding from former Nigerian military officers. Neither claim could be independently confirmed.

Since Monday, police and soldiers have escorted thousands of people evacuated from the state in trucks and vans. Many of those remaining behind said they also wanted to go.

Isa's husband Muhammed and five children -- Musa, Adama, Garba, Adamu and Hauwa -- were killed as she hid behind her house as attackers chanted "woman come out, we're going to kill you."

Kabiri Ibrahim, 37, was shot in the arm by men who also slaughtered his 65-year-old father with a machete. Ibrahim's wife and five children fled and he didn't know if they were alive.

"If they don't want us here we will go away," Ibrahim said. "I don't feel safe."

Some hoped peace could be restored. Mohammed Kabir Umar, a Muslim cleric, preached forgiveness to his followers on Friday.

"I call on them to forgive and forget ... By so doing, peace will return to us so that we will continue to live in harmony," he said.

In the heavily Muslim northern city of Kano, however, another radical cleric accused Christians of "systematically attacking Muslims."

"The blood of every Muslim is worth a thousand times more than that of pork-eating infidels," the Muslim cleric, Cheikh Bin Usman, said in a radio broadcast.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
No, they said stuff like, "they deserve whatever they get,"

Club did not say that Iraqi detainees deserve it. He was talking about Taliban and Sadr militants, who are killing our people, BTW. They are terrorists. Don't even bother taking the Taliban or Sadr militia or Fedeem Saddam prisoner. Kill them on the spot if they are shooting at you.

Originally posted by ltl/fb
"worse things happen to people in routine DWI arrests" and other things that indicated that they were saying more than just, it wasn't, strictly speaking, torture.

Worse things happen in fraternity hazing. Their point wasn't that this is OK behavior. Their point was that the response to this is exaggerated. They were humiliated by this stuff. The reaction some of you are having makes it out as if they were raped or murdered. They weren't. They were humiliated by this.

JFC. Get some fucking perspective.

Originally posted by ltl/fb
And club continued his statements after it had been revealed that there are homicide investigations relating to deaths of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of American military and individuals contracted to the American military.

Everything I have read has made a distinction between the murders that are being investigated and putting panties on someone's head. There is a distinction.

There is also a distinction between the Taliban and Fedeem (sp?) Saddam and common criminals being held. Harsher treatment is justified with the former two.

JFC. Get some fucking perspective.