Politics: J'accuse!

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Not Me
Fuck you, asshole. You fuckers who are so fucking outraged over the prison incidents need to get some fucking perspective.

Is perspective the new polygamy?

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Not Me
Good. Inbetween your self-flagellation and condemnation for the "atrocities" as you call them that went on in that prison, please express some of your outrage.

Fuck you, asshole. You fuckers who are so fucking outraged over the prison incidents need to get some fucking perspective.

Please spare a few minutes from your consant condemnation of everything the US does to express some outrage over this.

I am outraged.

At least fringey was hung over.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Yes, we are outraged. Those that are responsible are truly abhorrent and I hope they die a long and painful death and then suffer eternal torment and damnation.

This does not make our treatment of Iraqi prisoners any less outrageous.

I didn't say it makes what went on in that prison OK.

For the 15th million time, this is about getting some perspective. You Blame-America-First types sorely lack perspective in these matters.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Is perspective the new polygamy?

No. Gorelick was the new polygamy. Perspective is the new Gorelick.

Now is not the time to laugh. See, you lack perspective, again.

[Not Me]

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/051...issingman.html

• "My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."
  
  After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" – "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Are you suggesting that all of the prisoners were innocent? I assume that at least some of them may have committed similarly heinous acts. If so, is our treatment of them OK?

Not if we violated the Geneva Conventions.

Other people doing bad stuff doesn't make our doing bad stuff OK.

Perhaps this will help. Maybe the American who was beheaded sexually molested his niece. Do you know that he didn't? If he did, does that make what happened to him OK? I don't think it does make what happened to him OK. I think even if the Iraqis knew he molested his niece, it doesn't make it OK. I think even if the Iraqis knew he raped an Iraqi woman, if they killed him because Americans wouldn't trade him for their prisoners, that is not OK.

I don't think any of the killing is OK even if we find out that American and coalition forces killed exactly as many Iraqis held for questioning as Iraqis kill coalition hostages. Not OK. Iraqi actions -- bad. American actions -- bad.

I find our actions somewhat worse because everyone has been on their moral high horse about how bad Iraqis are and how wonderful we are. And, because I would like to think, like Rumsfeld and Bush apparently do, that Americans wouldn't do such things. It's not acceptable in our society, the American military has knowledge of studies showing that untrained people left in total control of other people can end up doing horrible things to them, and we have strong policies against it. Yet, it happened, and it continued to happen over a period of time, despite there having been reports,both internally and from the Red Cross, of behavior that (we are told) was prohibited by various American and other coalition policies.

Maybe I identify with Americans (duh, because I am one) too much not to feel ashamed and embarassed about what our people have done, though I think ashamed and embarassed are
weak words. I am angry and sad at the bad acts of the Iraqis. I am angry and sad and ashamed of the bad acts of Americans.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Not Me
I didn't say it makes what went on in that prison OK.

For the 15th million time, this is about getting some perspective. You Blame-America-First types sorely lack perspective in these matters.

I didn't say it made what the Iraqis (including Saddam) have done and are doing OK.

For the 15th billion time, this is about getting some perspective. You Blame-America-Last types sorely lack perspective in these matters.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Not Me
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/051...issingman.html

• "My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."
  
  After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" – "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

Tragic and barbaric.

This still doesn't make our abuse of Iraqi prisoners any less outrageous.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Tragic and barbaric.

This still doesn't make our abuse of Iraqi prisoners any less outrageous.

First principals, always return to the first principals (Hannibal Lechter). Ty told us all issues can be resolved by thinking of Orwell novels.

I keep remembering 1984, and when they killed a carload of prisioners for the people's amusement. I don't want to live in that society. We need to be above it, of course. We need to punish "those responsible," of course. No one disagrees.

It seems like where there is disagreement here is who is responsible. Atticus, as always has me at a disadvantage because he learned more in high school history than I did. I bet the maps I colored of Civil War battles kicked ass on his, but he's got the whole expected fallout of imperialist invasion shit on me. Are you guys saying we should fire Rumsfeld or Bush maybe, or are you looking for something else?

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
First principals, always return to the first principals (Hannibal Lechter). Ty told us all issues can be resolved by thinking of Orwell novels.

I keep remembering 1984, and when they killed a carload of prisioners for the people's amusement. I don't want to live in that society. We need to be above it, of course. We need to punish "those responsible," of course. No one disagrees.

It seems like where there is disagreement here is who is responsible. Atticus, as always has me at a disadvantage because he learned more in high school history than I did. I bet the maps I colored of Civil War battles kicked ass on his, but he's got the whole expected fallout of imperialist invasion shit on me. Are you guys saying we should fire Rumsfeld or Bush maybe, or are you looking for something else?

My first principal was a nun, and I am NOT going back there.

I can't answer your questions. I guess I just hate America, and freedom, and apple pie, and motherhood. Yes, what a sad fucker am I.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
My first principal was a nun, and I am NOT going back there.

Are you one of those guys who put "SIC" into his briefs all the time? I bet you are....

what a sad fucker am I.

thank you. this was what i was looking for, let's start with shit we can all agree on, then move forward.

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
First principals, always return to the first principals (Hannibal Lechter). Ty told us all issues can be resolved by thinking of Orwell novels.

I keep remembering 1984, and when they killed a carload of prisioners for the people's amusement. I don't want to live in that society. We need to be above it, of course. We need to punish "those responsible," of course. No one disagrees.

It seems like where there is disagreement here is who is responsible. Atticus, as always has me at a disadvantage because he learned more in high school history than I did. I bet the maps I colored of Civil War battles kicked ass on his, but he's got the whole expected fallout of imperialist invasion shit on me. Are you guys saying we should fire Rumsfeld or Bush maybe, or are you looking for something else?

My wife and I were discussing this last night. IMHO, Bush has got to go, if we are to gain any cred with the rest of the world. Kerry would have to spend the first year traveling and mending fences. He has to identify as many nations, especially Arab nations, as possible who will align with us and help us to identify and eradicate Al Qaeda cells. We have to be seen as America the Good to the world, and America the Pitiless to terrorists.

I don't want to waste time fingering responsible parties. I want America to be safe from terrorists. But this administration seems to think that we can do that alone, that we can just stomp our boots over anyone and anything in our path in the name of 9/11. Iit ain't working - it's breeding more hatred of America and more terrorists. They are making the world more dangerous for America.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Not Me
That body they found yesterday is the decapitated body of a 26 year old US contractor who was kidnapped in Iraq.

There is a video tape of his decapitation being played on an Islamic website.

His last name sounded jewish.

The murderers were Al Queda.

Now lets see those of you who are so fucking outraged over panties on someone's head get outraged over this. Can we get some proportional outrage?

Of course we're outraged. That is horrible, and I feel terrible for that guys' familiy and friends.

But I'm not entirely sure why I should post about that on this Board, and I don't agree that this relates in any way to the topic we were discussing.

Nothing done by al Quaeda, no matter how barbaric, changes the facts of what happened at Abu Ghraib. Nor does it reduce in any way the damage that those incidents have done to our reputation or our war effort. So, while I know what you'd say that your point is -- you have no point.

S_A_M

[eta: P.S. I am at this moment speaking to a military officer who is pretty familiar (second-hand) with the contents of the unreleased photos and videos. That person's words include "tip of the tip of the iceberg" and "we're screwed".]

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
That body they found yesterday is the decapitated body of a 26 year old US contractor who was kidnapped in Iraq.

There is a video tape of his decapitation being played on an Islamic website.

His last name sounded jewish.

The murderers were Al Queda.

Now lets see those of you who are so fucking outraged over panties on someone's head get outraged over this. Can we get some proportional outrage?

That's outrageous. Al Qaeda should appear before a Senate committee, and Osama should resign.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Not Me
Now lets see those of you who are so fucking outraged over panties on someone's head get outraged over this. Can we get some proportional outrage?

I feel for him and his family. Of course, I was anti-beheading before the war. I was on record against beheadings before 9/11, too. The CPA has my permission to capture or kill the five (?) men who did this. (NB: Not capture and kill. Or. FWIW.)

Right now I'd really like to see some pictures of some happy Iraqis. Anyone know where I can find some?