Politics: J'accuse!

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Probably, but I suspect that the armor required would make the tank essentially immobile, which kinda defeats the point.

I thought they already had armor on them. It just seems unbelievable to me that something that is so small can blow up our tanks. Maybe the RPG's are bigger than I think they are.

[bilmore]

Dear Friends:

We need your help RIGHT NOW to get on the ballot in North Carolina and
Texas!

Both of these states have unbelievably early deadlines to get on the
ballot and unfair signature requirements.

In Texas we need to collect 66,000 VALID signatures by May 10th .

In North Carolina, we need to collect at least 59,000 valid signatures
by May 17th .

If you can travel to either state to help, please visit:
www.votenader.org/roadtrip/ or contact ahearn@votenader.org.

And then hit the road! It's springtime! The flowers are blooming and the
birds chirping. But they can't collect signatures. You can!
We are looking for serious volunteer signature gatherers immediately.

If you can't, please contribute www.votenader.org/contribute that we can
put more field
people on the ground. Both of these states are top priorities this month
and are musts if we are going to be on the ballot in all 50 states.

Sincerely,

Ralph Nader





Declare Your Independence... Vote Nader
<http://www.votenader.org/>

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Not Me
I thought they already had armor on them. It just seems unbelievable to me that something that is so small can blow up our tanks. Maybe the RPG's are bigger than I think they are.

In the escalating battle between armor and explosive, it's far easier to grow the explosive, and so they will always win.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by bilmore
In the escalating battle between armor and explosive, it's far easier to grow the explosive, and so they will always win.

But I thought the RPG's are hand-held device that one man can launch and that is one reason why they are such a threat. I would think there is a limit to the amount of explosive power you can put in a grenade and still allow it to be so portable. If it got too heavy or too large, that would make it much harder to carry around and launch so easily.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
None were ever used.

Eventually they were delivered, and none were ever used. Sorry, Ty, I like Clinton too. But the buck stops there. You wouldn't excuse Bush if the USAF had carpet-bombed Baghdad, even if he could show that the generals had gone beyond the authority he granted.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
In the escalating battle between armor and explosive, it's far easier to grow the explosive, and so they will always win.

They don't armor the tank to an equal degree everywhere -- they're most concerned with the places that another tank might shoot at you. So the front gets the most armor, and the back gets the least. An individual with an RPG in an urban environment can shoot at the rear. Tanks have always been vulnerable to these sorts of infantry weapons, which is why they never work well alone -- you need supporting infantry ("combined arms"). Another problem for the tankers in these situations is their lousy visibility.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Point is, there is nothing meaningful that could have been done, really, prior to 9/11. We as a society were not willing to accept such a costly effort without having felt the pain first. Few of us would pay thousands to get rid of termites without first seeing termites.

Probably true, but no one in a position of power will dare to day that, because it sounds like a completely unverifiable cop out.

Originally posted by bilmore
And the idea that OBL would have been handled by Clinton if only Clinton had not been bothered by those pesky problems over his lying under oath doesn't fly, in my mind. I see nothing that indicates that he would have been willing to do such a thing, even with a clear schedule and more widespread support.

I don't know. It's all counter-factual, and Clinton is a domestic policy guy at heart -- but he did appoint the counter-terror czar, and increase efforts, signed an Order authorizing bin Laden's termination, sent FBI and CIA/SOF into Pakistan to snatch the CIA building shooter (with cooperation from Pakistan) and/or Ramsi al Yousef (I forget which).

Given all that, I don't think one can rule out a broader anti-AQ operation if he had the chance.

S_A_M

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by bilmore
Dear Friends:

We need your help RIGHT NOW to get on the ballot in North Carolina and
Texas!

[etc. etc.]

Heh. I hope Nader devotes enormous resources to getting on the ballots in these states, hopefully to the detriment of efforts elsewhere.

If these two are battleground states in any sense other than within Nader's brain, I'll eat my hat.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Not Me
But I thought the RPG's are hand-held device that one man can launch and that is one reason why they are such a threat. I would think there is a limit to the amount of explosive power you can put in a grenade and still allow it to be so portable. If it got too heavy or too large, that would make it much harder to carry around and launch so easily.

Yes, but advances in high-density penetrating heads, shaped charges, and, yes, more powerful explosives are much cheaper to pursue and accomplish than advances in armor. The RPG of today is not your father's RPG.

(ETA - As Ty says, the backs and sides were armored only enough to withstand RPG's and other non-high-power weapons. The RPG's get stronger, the armor creeps up, the RPG's get stronger, . . . It's a continuing race that the armor is always lagging in.)

[Sidd Finch]

How long will the discussion of tanks last? I've seen this before, it's not pretty.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
How long will the discussion of tanks last? I've seen this before, it's not pretty.

T'anks for the warning.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Eventually they were delivered, and none were ever used. Sorry, Ty, I like Clinton too. But the buck stops there. You wouldn't excuse Bush if the USAF had carpet-bombed Baghdad, even if he could show that the generals had gone beyond the authority he granted.

One conversation is who to excuse; another is who to fault. Clarke's book details all sorts of foot-dragging by the military during the Clinton years. As the sources I just quoted make clear, this was a big enough institutional problem that it prompted some serious self-evaluation and change on the military's part. Could Clinton have done more? Maybe so. But with the Apaches, remember that the call for them came from General Wesley Clark.

And the premise and conclusion of your analogy are both silly.

[Gattigap]

Today's Slate praises 60 Minutes for its straighforward mea culpa on getting duped by, um, duplicitous Iraqi defectors. The article also castigates others for not bothering to set the record straight. The list is long.

(I don't see the list including FNC, but I assume they're on there too.)

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
How long will the discussion of tanks last? I've seen this before, it's not pretty.

I think that the real question is how the old Soviet T-54s would be doing as compared to our M-1 Abrams with regard to these RPGs -- and how their respective speeds and fuel efficiency would contribute to overall mission accomplishment.

Now, those Panzers, those were something else.

S_A_M

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
They don't armor the tank to an equal degree everywhere -- they're most concerned with the places that another tank might shoot at you. So the front gets the most armor, and the back gets the least. An individual with an RPG in an urban environment can shoot at the rear. Tanks have always been vulnerable to these sorts of infantry weapons, which is why they never work well alone -- you need supporting infantry ("combined arms"). Another problem for the tankers in these situations is their lousy visibility.

It just seems awful to me that they send these kids out in urban warfare if the equipment isn't designed for urban warfare.

There has to be some sort of technology that could combat these RPGs.