Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I have a male counterpart in another division that makes a lot more than I do. We were in the same law school class. We have the same titles, and we do the same thing though our divisions are slightly different and we face different issues. The only difference between our jobs is that he's been with the institution his entire career and I lateralled in nearly two years ago, and his division may value the work he does more than mine does. He supervises more people. I have enough work for more people, but I don't have the budget for them.

I think the seniority thing is significant in a lot of businesses. Often not justifiably from a skills/ability p.o.v. (see: every union's seniority system), but maybe as a corporate cultural thing it has value.

I think Sidd has a good point on this, but I also think women tend to change jobs/take time off/flex schedule more than men do, and it affects seniority and, sometimes, their experience and even the nature of the job they do. It also appears to me that women often have to make such changes, and men are often effectively not permitted to.

[ThrashersFan]

Originally posted by NotFromHere
That's EXACTLY what she did!! Do they teach that in mom school. My friends couldn't understand why I bitched about her all the time. They's always say, "but your mom's so nice."
So my mom DID have kids in Canada!

Almost Canada -- just a hop, skip and frozen lake away. The person who calls herself my mother (actually, she calls herself Mommie Dearest) will be happy to know that I am someone else's satan spawn.

[dtb]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
If you choose to marry someone other than a lawyer (or someone making a bunch of cash), it does not make sense for you to stop working. I would quit this job in a second and stay at home with my daughter if that were an option. But my loans, her loans, the rent and the other bills ain't gonna get paid on her salary. And you know what? Most men couldn't do that even if their wife did make as much cash because there is that "special bond" between a mother and child that trumps whatever pathetic little bond men think they have with their kids.

The women on this board do all the things you and others (namely, Bilmore) are saying (get up, go to work, slave, slave, slave, go home, etc.) but then ALSO are expected to do all the kid stuff too.

Most men wouldn't do it, because they'd be too busy whining about how hard they work, and they need a BREAK when they come home, dammit!

Most men would sooner slit their throats than stay home with their kids -- it would drive them batty. (Bond, schmond...)

[ThrashersFan]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
It would be easier to justify your need if you drank something that cost more than $10 a case.

My champagne habit is a bitch.

hmmphh It is $10 a 12-pack. So there!!

I have other habits too, ya know...like....like

Yeah, you're right, I suck.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
You forgot the first rule of any online forum: don't take anything personally.

The corallary to the first rule is that you can take great pride when you are able to get someone to take personally something you say on an online forum.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
This is a statistic I've never understood, and one that I suspect incorrectly defines "in the same jobs."

Can anyone identify women and men with differential incomes who are really in the same jobs, doing the same thing with the same value? Don't respond "the male GPs make more than the female GPs at my firm" unless you have a basis to show that those compensation differences are not merited by rainmaking, work, seniority, or other valid factors.

It means that male nurses, with the same experience make more than female nurses. It means that male hairdressers, secretaries, architechts, LAWYERS, what-have-you, with comparable education and experience make more than their female counterparts.

I need to go to yoga, so I'm not googling it -- but this shouldn't be hard to find if you're really interested in disproving it.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
No, I am hot. Just modest.

(And the fact that I have now posted it is post hoc so it doesnt count, Cooter and Gareth. )

Stop saying "post hoc," you twit.

TM

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by bilmore
stuff

ok, it's like this bilmore, because now I think you are sincere.

It's very nice that your wife and you have this little thing you do where she sits down and plans your life and you feign that the little woman really holds the reins of power in your life. Maybe she does. I don't know and don't care. And you were just joking about SD's stupid comment in the first place, so I should really have gotten annoyed at him.

Jokes that are not gallows humor about things that are not joking matters (in my view) bug me. One thing that sets me off is joking about how women rule the world even though so many women get totally shit on all over the world that if they do rule the world they're a bunch of masochists. I'm not talking about my own situation, because although I don't rule the world, I'm extremely comfortable and seriously have few, if any, complaints.

It's just that, to use an extreme example, I hear shit like "actually women rule the world" and I think of infected labia stitched up with barbed wire. Which I have in fact seen, and it's not pretty. Those kind of things you don't forget and that's maybe why I get set off so easily at what you thought was a harmless joke. It's just a stupid joke to make because it's so clearly not the case.

I'm tired so my writing may not be stellar. sorry.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by dtb
It means that male nurses, with the same experience make more than female nurses. It means that male hairdressers, secretaries, architechts, LAWYERS, what-have-you, with comparable education and experience make more than their female counterparts.

I need to go to yoga, so I'm not googling it -- but this shouldn't be hard to find if you're really interested in disproving it.

If it were that pervasive and that obvious, I would think that you or someone else could cite a specific example of the same employer choosing to pay men and women in the same positions differently because of their sex.

I'm not questioning the existence of gender bias. I'm questioning the casual reliance on the "men make more than women" statistic as conclusive evidence of universal gender bias.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
It's just that, to use an extreme example, I hear shit like "actually women rule the world" and I think of infected labia stitched up with barbed wire.

I hear "men rule the world" and I think about combat deaths, the prison system, and life expectancy statistics.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by dtb
The women on this board do all the things you and others (namely, Bilmore) are saying (get up, go to work, slave, slave, slave, go home, etc.) but then ALSO are expected to do all the kid stuff too.

Most men wouldn't do it, because they'd be too busy whining about how hard they work, and they need a BREAK when they come home, dammit!

Most men would sooner slit their throats than stay home with their kids -- it would drive them batty. (Bond, schmond...)

Or we don't have kids.

Slightly off point (ok, maybe completely off point), this conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with a partner at my firm recently. I was leaving at 6:00 one day to pick up drycleaning and I mentioned that I was in a hurry trying to get there b/f the place closed. He said that I should really get a wife to do that. We laughed. But it is true that everyone in our profession feels like there is too much to do and too little time to do it in. Maybe even everyone today feels that way. I think it has to do with the speed at which things happen these days.

I agree with many posters today there are things that are inherently unfair for men, as there are for women (both career and stay-at-home). The debate as to who has things worse is overdone in my opinion. Who cares? If I sit around a bitch because the male associates are invited on more bonding outings than I am because most partners are male, is that act (the bitching I mean) helping me either way? Maybe it sucks, but that's how things work. And if a situation sucks beyond the suck-up-and-deal point, then it most likely is actionable. Or it should be.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
If it were that pervasive and that obvious, I would think that you or someone else could cite a specific example of the same employer choosing to pay men and women in the same positions differently because of their sex.

I'm not questioning the existence of gender bias. I'm questioning the casual reliance on the "men make more than women" statistic as conclusive evidence of universal gender bias.

Well, I don't make a habit of asking people how much they get paid, but GWNC provided you with an example.

I am, however, aware of pay inequities that I am not at liberty to discuss. Ahem.

And as you well know, you cannot prove causation, just correlation. But people who collect this data (whom I guess, people are willing to disclose their salaries to) are still showing the same results.

REally, I've gotta go -- NO MORE POSTING! My OCD won't let me leave!!

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by dtb
The women on this board do all the things you and others (namely, Bilmore) are saying (get up, go to work, slave, slave, slave, go home, etc.) but then ALSO are expected to do all the kid stuff too.

How the hell do you know that? And what's your point? My wife, even when she worked, didn't work the hours I work. She should be taking care of that other shit. And bilmore just said he works damn hard at home. And you're full of yourself (not really) if you think that men just naturally don't do shit when it comes to kids. If my wife and I both worked the same hours (had she continued to work once she had the kid), do you really think I would be doing less than she for my child? You're insane.

Originally posted by dtb
Most men wouldn't do it, because they'd be too busy whining about how hard they work, and they need a BREAK when they come home, dammit!

Well, if you're at home with the kid all day, it may be tiring, but it ain't work work. So, yeah. I'll take a break when I get home. Because when my break is over, I'm doing as much, if not more work at home than YOU. Because now you need a break (and they seem to last much longer than mine).

Originally posted by dtb
Most men would sooner slit their throats than stay home with their kids -- it would drive them batty. (Bond, schmond...)

Ah. "Most men," hunh? Other people can't say "most women," when posting on this topic that got you all hot and bothered, but "most men" is perfectly acceptable? I would trade in a second if my wife could pull in the cash I'm pulling in. I bet a bunch of other men would too. I love spending time with my daughter.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Not Me
The corallary to the first rule is that you can take great pride when you are able to get someone to take personally something you say on an online forum.

Like, you're a race-baiting piece of shit?

TM

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I hear "men rule the world" and I think about combat deaths, the prison system, and life expectancy statistics.

Whose fault is the prison system? The men who set it up or the men who end up as inmates?

Same with life expectancy. Whose fault is that? The men who shorten their lives by smoking or the men who shorten their lives by consuming excessive amounts of drugs/alcohol or by getting into disputes with other men who happen to own guns? Admittedly, the disparity due to smoking/drugs/alcohol is narrowing, but so is the disparity in life spans.

Combat deaths I will give you. But remember that NOW and other feminist organizations have long advocated for women in the military and on the front lines. It was Newt Gingrich who said we cannot be in the trenches because we get "infections."