Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
This is pretty different from some of your comments yesterday. To respond to what you are saying here, though, certainly that is my experience. When we were only planning on kids, my wife said that she would work after we had one. It was important to figure this out in advance, because we were about to buy a new home and her income was essential to maintain it.

After the kid was born, it was clear that she wanted to stay at home. Partly to be with our son, partly because she was sick of her job. But, this was after the Great Raise of Aught-Aught, and I was busy as hell (on an hours-based bonus system) and pretty confident that if I kept working hard I could make partner. So, I agreed she could stay at home if that made her happy.

I thought that I did this out of love, respect for her desires, and the knowledge that growing up with her would be a wonderful thing for our son.

Yesterday, you claimed that men -- presumably all men, since you chose not to qualify it -- like their wives to stay at home because that's a "trophy" or status symbol. I don't remember the exact words you used and don't care to read that post again. But I don't remember reading anything on these boards that I ever found so personally insulting and offensive.

Actually I've known several men (with and without kids) whose wives decided they should stop working against the advice and counter to the preference of their husbands. In at least one case, that was part of the reason for their later divorce.

It can become harder for the working spouse to feel like the non-working one is bringing much to the table. I've seen this run both ways (when the man isn't offering much substance to the relationship).

Obviously anecdotal, but I must not run in the same circles as dtb.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by leagleaze
You're telling me kermie.

Especially when the man always has a big hairy arm up your ass!

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Actually I've known several men (with and without kids) whose wives decided they should stop working against the advice and counter to the preference of their husbands. In at least one case, that was part of the reason for their later divorce.

Is providing sex, occasional companionship and willingness to handle some household and other chores an appropriate role for a person in a marriage? I say no, but I think many people still think so. Those are the kinds of things people should talk about before they get married, though.

[Aloha Mr. Learned Hand]

Originally posted by leagleaze
(I'm moving tomorrow so today is friday for me.)

Aluminum or plastic?

I say stick with the aluminum, since those Rubbermaid (tm) cans are more prone to topple over or blow away in the wind...

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen
In defense of BRC and Co.("They"), I believe that They were railing at women who stay at home and then complain because their husbands don't make enough money for a new Range Rover (like Mrs. NotBob's, btw) or a country club membership or a week at Canyon Ranch where said SAHM can take Ashtanga Yoga and get six different kinds of facials.

I believe They were suggesting that these women needed to get a fucking grip, and that if they (not to be confused with They) wanted these expensive thingys, they should get a fucking job. Or at least, not harp on hubby, who is doing his best to work and take care of his family.

EXCUSE ME!!!! Some of us won't ever have husbands or babies. Ever. We missed that boat and all we have left is a lifetime of diminishing menstrual flows and paper clips. What about us???? WHo is gonna buy us range rovers? Who is gonna allow us the option to stay at home or go to work? Do we have to become lesbians (NTTAWWT) because no man will have us, and if so, which one of us hits the sperm bank and does the spermee automatically get to be the one who stays home? I don't see any of you married parents thinking of our plight. This thread is fucking insensitive. If it werent for the Retreat for Unwed Ladies in Their Thirties and Up, I might never get to take ashtanga yoga on someone else's dime in a nice deserty or Berkshiry setting. Nevermind that the class will be infested with a bunch of other gray bepubed twats, I will take it. Because it is all that I have and probably the only nice thing that I will ever get that I didn't have to pay for myself. And will ever have. So take this convo to the Greedy Parents Board, which might as well be called the Greedy No Spinsters Exist In Our Cozy Universe Board, so I don't have to be subject to any more of this abuse. Yes, it is a foul truth I speak, but that doesnt' mean that I am not mostly correct.

Ah, PMS. This is probably one of the last ones I will ever enjoy. I need a Midoltini.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I spend a lot more time around affluent minorities than I do around poor white people. And I do spend a lot of time in places where there aren't many white people. I play soccer in a Spanish-speaking league. My favorite local restaurant is mostly full of American blacks, and I spend at least one night a week hanging out at the reggae place down the street from me, which is about 90% Jamaicans. That said, it's not really relevant to this discussion (It's more of a Jerry Springer-esque, "You don't KNOW me!"), except to suggest that I don't spend all my time hanging out with the partners at my firm talking about favorite cuts of steak and how to keep minorities down.

That's about the most ignorant shit I've ever heard on the internet. You're obviously speaking somewhat facetiously, but your perception that those who are unlike you in racial makeup are sitting around conspiring to get you speaks volumes about your own pysche.

It doesn't matter what I write. You translate it all into something else your screwed up little head thinks it should read.

I never once mentioned that you sit around conspiring to get me, you nitwit. My example was supposed to get you to recognize the things you must do when you're with your jamaican friends or whoever that allow you to feel accepted and trusted by them. Some of these things are what makes you you (although I'd love to meet these guys because I can't see how they could like you and if you printed out all your posts and presented them to them, I doubt highly they would continue to like you, but that is neither here nor there). Some of these things are bits and pieces of them and their culture that you either conciously or subconciously try to get them to notice you have.

As for "ignorant shit" you've read on the internet, I doubt that highly. But if you want some really good stuff, just go back over what you've already written.

Originally posted by mmm3587
Am I denying racism? No. I'm not denying that you've experienced racism, either. And I've never denied that certain minorities, as a group, suffer from racism and the perceptions and faults of society more than white people, as a group, do. But, for many Americans, their troubles are not based in their race. They don't have no health insurance, or no education, or no chances to live a comfortable life, because of their race. They have those problems because of other social and governmental problems in our country. Do minorities and women suffer from these problems more than white guys do? Yes, unfortunately, they still do. But the problems in the lives of people do not begin and end with race.

Who the fuck said they did? Not me. I'm trying to live my life dealing with these problems. Where are you coming from with this "lives of people do not begin and end with race" bit? It sounds like you have a problem with race that's larger than mine because I think you're bringing some outside issues of your own here (that don't fit) and trying to force them into this conversation. At least my issues fit the topic.

Originally posted by mmm3587
And in changing the lives of people for the better, I don't feel that segregation and exclusion are the answers. I feel strongly that affirmative action programs in admissions and even hiring are appropriate. But, as I understand it, it's still illegal to give extra "points" because of race, or hire someone solely because he or she is part of a certain demographic. And I think it should be.

Again, what are you talking about? You are off-topic and I'm not going to get into a debate about what is and isn't affirmative action. Our conversation is limited in scope to the complaint you raised about what you weren't getting. Nowhere in any of these discussions has anyone raised getting extra points because of race or hiring someone because of race or gender. Oldest trick in the book. When you're losing and have nothing to say, shift the argument to one where a bunch of people will jump in to get your back. "Quotas are unfair!" Too bad we're not talking about that, jackass.

Originally posted by mmm3587
We've got to recognize that those who benefit from these programs, especially in, for example, prestigious law schools and law firms, are usually pretty divorced from the problems that currently face the rest of their protected class. And by drawing (what I feel to be, in a modern law firm) arbitrary lines about race (invite that guy, he's an affluent Jordanian whose family owns half of the filling stations in New Jersey, but don't invite that guy, he's a poor Jew from Omaha) when determining who gets to be a part of a certain program offends me. Just like it offends me when the culture of a law firm dictates it's appropriate for a woman to sculpt her career to work around her kids and her family, but it's in appropriate for a man to want to be around his children.

You're all over the place. Stick to what we were talking about or shut up. If you want to argue with dtb about how unfair it is that men are looked down upon if they take paternity leave, do it in another post.

Originally posted by mmm3587
So, that's all. You're the one who's making the assumptions about me. The only assumption I've made about you is that your position in life is better than most black males your age. That doesn't seem far fetched. If true, it doesn't preclude you from feeling angry about racism or about wanting to have programs which, in your perception, will help to make our society racism-free.

Don't ignore what I wrote and then try to sum up my ideas and opinions in such a simple, glib way. The simple fact is, most white people who give a shit about not receiving a mentor under plans like this don't really want a fucking mentor anyway. In fact, my firm had a mentor program for every incoming associate and did away with it because no one used it. I bet if you worked here, you wouldn't have either. But you would still be posting about how unfair it was if they instituted a minority mentoring program (which they haven't). You're talking out the side of your neck and we all know it.

Originally posted by mmm3587
I don't think that benefits and programs directed only towards certain races are appropriate. I never have, and I never will. Even if they were, I don't think that that are likely to achieve the end that we're looking for.

So just shut up, then. They're not hurting you. You're not missing out on anything.

Originally posted by mmm3587
You're putting words in my mouth when you suggest I was saying you were going to get a bunch of black people together and jump me.

I see. I guess I was going to "plot" (your word) by myself then?

Originally posted by mmm3587
But you're the one who threatened violence, and that pisses me off, too. My protestations and statements automatically become racism, and then they automatically become worthy of violent retribution. Even with all the things you've claimed that I've said, or claim that I do, or claim that I am, it amazes me that you think an answer to the attitudes you perceive me to have is to try to threaten me and intimidate me over the internet.

I didn't threaten you. I said, "If we met and you said those things to my face I would beat your ass." We both know that's not going to happen, so go change your underwear and relax. I know you only get brave like this because we're separated by the internet.

And it's apparent you didn't read what I wrote this morning in response the first time. It was a way of demonstrating the difference between when you get offensive and when someone like Sebby does. I would shake my head and laugh at Sebby over a beer. After hearing what you said in person, I would be tempted to knock you out. But I'm not threatening you, so stop cowering.

TM

Originally posted by Aloha Mr. Learned Hand


I would think the physical imperfections of the stars would be that much more pronounced in HD, particularly the aging ones.

Fuck you.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
. . . all we have left is a lifetime of diminishing menstrual flows and paper clips.

I don't think I wanna know where the paper clips come in here.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen
In defense of BRC and Co.("They"), I believe that They were railing at women who stay at home and then complain because their husbands don't make enough money for a new Range Rover (like Mrs. NotBob's, btw) or a country club membership or a week at Canyon Ranch where said SAHM can take Ashtanga Yoga and get six different kinds of facials.

That's about right.

dtb
Why is it personally insulting if it doesn't apply to you? You cannot be serious [this is grammatically incorrect obviously, but I wanted to use the J.McEnroe catch-phrase] that unless someone says "well, in most cases... blah blah blah" she actually means that it applies 100% of the time.

But I was denigrating all stay at home moms and should mind my business? Even when I expressly said I wasn't, but was commenting on a specific "it's your job to support me and why aren't you providing me with a bigger house" attitude I've recently seen in some family members and seen imposed on a number of male GAs at my office recently?

Oh, and have I mentioned how pleased I am my greedy, lazy, user ho bitches re: line lasted so long?

b&b
[story about staying home issues]

Key distinction here - it is you and your hubby considering your future actions together. Not simply assuming either (i) now that you unilaterally decided that you want to stay home it is necessarily his job to increase his wages so your lifestyle does not suffer, or (ii) now that you popped out a kid he decides unilaterally that it is your job to stay home and take care of it so it doesn't interfere with Daddy's job. 'Dat's the shit that pisses me off.

dtb
I didn't delete it -- I'll say it again -- most dads would not want to stay home with their children all day every day. ...Hell -- I don't want to be the housewife either -- it would drive me absolutely nuts ...

I was going to say it, but you said it first. I think in reality most Mom's don't want to stay home with their children all day, either.

balt
Why not? Who the hell thought this guy up?

The real st. nicholas is a lot more fun than Santa. The real st. nicholas's most famous miracle involved pickled children. This is a much better story to ensure good behavior from children than the usual "santa is keeping a list of the good and bad children ..." one. St. Nicholas was not actually a very nice character.

The image of Santa we currently have is mainly based on the old pagan holly king, who dies at Yule (winter solstice) and is replaced by the infant ivy king. Yes, this is now better reflected in the images of father time and baby new year. Anyhow, that is the santa image you're now familiar with. He got conflated in the Netherlands with St. Nick and started giving presents to children at Yule (presents at Yule were always traditional, but it used to be a rather adult-centric holiday involving many days of drinking, sex, insulting authority figures, lighting fires and feeding the poor). That was brought to New York by dutch settlers in the 17th century, and then got re-exported back to England by Americans in the early 19th century. Which also explains why most european christmas traditions don't actually have santa.

gwnc
I'm assuming a fairly low standard for "working ok" - but the great country of Canada has worked ok since 1867 and our whole existence is predicated on maintaining our divisions.

Very low standard indeed. Vive le Quebec libre!

[SlaveNoMore]

evenodds
We were trying to figure out who the "prominent dolphins player" is. My guess is Jason Taylor, since he is married to Zach Thomas's sister. The OM insisted it would be Thomas himself; since he introduced them, he would be the true traitor.

Racism aside, who actually encourages their buddy to bang their sister?

The last time this happened in Miami, Tony killed Ray.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Aloha Mr. Learned Hand
Has anyone covered this yet?

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/031202/media_playboy_1.html

Playboy announces the creation of SpiceHD, the first HDTV pay-per-porn channel...

This was covered indirectly on the Gadgets board, in that Sidd coincidentally announced this week that he was looking into plasma TVs.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone_Slothrop
I was given a Belle & Sebastian album a few years ago and have never checked it out, so I listened to it during my commute this morning, and I kinda liked it. So my question is, does this mean I'm gay? If so, I'm thinking I should tell my wife.

This does not mean you are gay.

The Red Sox thing however...

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
EXCUSE ME!!!! Some of us won't ever have husbands or babies. Ever. We missed that boat and all we have left is a lifetime of diminishing menstrual flows and paper clips. What about us???? WHo is gonna buy us range rovers? Who is gonna allow us the option to stay at home or go to work? Do we have to become lesbians (NTTAWWT) because no man will have us, and if so, which one of us hits the sperm bank and does the spermee automatically get to be the one who stays home? I don't see any of you married parents thinking of our plight. This thread is fucking insensitive. If it werent for the Retreat for Unwed Ladies in Their Thirties and Up, I might never get to take ashtanga yoga on someone else's dime in a nice deserty or Berkshiry setting. Nevermind that the class will be infested with a bunch of other gray bepubed twats, I will take it. Because it is all that I have and probably the only nice thing that I will ever get that I didn't have to pay for myself. And will ever have. So take this convo to the Greedy Parents Board, which might as well be called the Greedy No Spinsters Exist In Our Cozy Universe Board, so I don't have to be subject to any more of this abuse. Yes, it is a foul truth I speak, but that doesnt' mean that I am not mostly correct.

Ah, PMS. This is probably one of the last ones I will ever enjoy. I need a Midoltini.

You wanna split for a psychiatrist?

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by Aloha Mr. Learned Hand
Aluminum or plastic?

I say stick with the aluminum, since those Rubbermaid (tm) cans are more prone to topple over or blow away in the wind...

Aluminum. None of this newfangled shit for me.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Racism aside, who actually encourages their buddy to bang their sister?

The last time this happened in Miami, Tony killed Ray.

I do. I get 40% (50% until I'm paid in full for the implants).