Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
Should I have written 1/16th Scots (because Scot is noun form and Scots the adjective)?

Scottish is for objects (and terriers), correct?

And can the kid wear a diaper under a kilt? Or do I have to go with the newfangled method of non potty training that is all the rage among some Chinese parents?

Where the fuck are Atticus and BRC?

Your usage was fine. Both Scot and Scots are nouns, but Scots is also an adjective. But in 1/16 Scot the 1/16 is the adjective and Scot is the noun.

For diapers, you should use these:

kids private parts all covered here

[Not Me]

Originally posted by bilmore
[a bunch of books that I would have to either buy or get off my ass and go to the library to read]

I know much of the work in this field and these "studies" aren't well designed. If you can show me something that I can conveniently read (i.e., I don't have to pay to read it or get off my ass and go to the library or a book store to obtain it), I will point out to you exactly why these studies don't support what you say that they do.

Most of these studies never even attempt to measure conflict in the marriage. The only conclusions that are supported by these studies are that happy, well-adjusted people tend to stay married and raise happy, well-adjusted children and that unhappy, poorly adjusted people tend to get divorced and raise unhappy, poorly adjusted children.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I'm skeptical about these studies. I'm sure they exist, but how does one measure in a study happiness and being well-adjusted?

The ones I knew looked at future marriage/divorce stats for the kids, and some other objective measures that aren't coming to me right now. They candidly admit that you can't measure happiness, so they looked for what they thought were valid symptoms of happiness and adjustment. Best that can be done, I guess, but, again, lack of completely accurate data shouldn't completely obviate the study, as long as a reader is made aware of the limitations. I found them persuasive.

I can only base my findings on the few friends I have.

If you have few friends, you may not be the best baseline.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
You know, sometimes (more often than not?) the kids themselves pick the gender stereotyped toys.

I have no idea if it's more often the kid than the parents or vice versa. But I do know that kids do pick gender stereotyped toys and it's weird. I hear this from lots of other parents, of both boys and girls, and have seen it plenty of times myself.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by bilmore
The ones I knew looked at future marriage/divorce stats for the kids, and some other objective measures that aren't coming to me right now. They candidly admit that you can't measure happiness, so they looked for what they thought were valid symptoms of happiness and adjustment. Best that can be done, I guess, but, again, lack of completely accurate data shouldn't completely obviate the study, as long as a reader is made aware of the limitations. I found them persuasive.

I didn't say you had to throw out the whole study, but surely you can see that "future divorce rates" doesn't really mean much when measuring happiness. It may just mean that you've learned to swallow your unhappiness and stay married because that's what your idiot parents did.

And how do they measure the happiness of the kids when they're kids and it's actually happening? That's what I would concentrate on.

Originally posted by bilmore
If you have few friends, you may not be the best baseline.

You're right. But it's by choice because (and I believe we've come full circle), people are stupid.

TM

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Not Me
If you can show me something that I can conveniently read (i.e., I don't have to pay to read it or get off my ass and go to the library or a book store to obtain it), I will point out to you exactly why these studies don't support what you say that they do.

How generous of you. Here, let me wipe your nose for you.

Most of these studies never even attempt to measure conflict in the marriage.

OK, I should find you something that you will take the time to read, and not these, yet you're telling me what the flaws are in these works that you haven't read, and pointing out poor methodologies? Methinks you already have a conclusion, in need of some documentation.

(I hear what you're saying, but offer something that doesn't just critique these, but validly supports your thesis.)

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I can only base my findings on the few friends I have.

TM

Everyone with whom I've had a serious relationship has had divorced parents. I'm not really sure why this is, but I figure it's just a coincidence. Anyway (and this may be an obvious point), the younger it happened, the less it seemed to have affected them. One guy's parent's divorced when he was really little - they then went on to have Elizabeth Taylor-like marriages and divorces. He's one of the most well-adjusted people I know.

At the other extreme is the guy whose parents divorced when he was 18. It's like they stayed together until the youngest (him) was all grown up, then ta-da, divorced. He's pretty fucked up about it. He doesn't know when the marriage ended and the sham began kind of thing. Although he is now married himself and appears happy.

And another thought. I love my parents, but they have the most co-dependent toxic relationship I have ever seen. In fact, most people I know that have been married a very long time seem to have these awful relationships where they totally need each other but all they seem to do is push each other's buttons and display this sort of moldy repetitive habitual behavior. They appear stuck in huge ruts. Sad that. I hope to be married for a long time but I hope someone kills me before I start acting like that.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
And another thought. I love my parents, but they have the most co-dependent toxic relationship I have ever seen. In fact, most people I know that have been married a very long time seem to have these awful relationships where they totally need each other but all they seem to do is push each other's buttons and display this sort of moldy repetitive habitual behavior. They appear stuck in huge ruts. Sad that.

Paigow, JRuss, it's time you started thinking about a divorce.

TM

[Not Me]

Originally posted by bilmore
(I hear what you're saying, but offer something that doesn't just critique these, but validly supports your thesis.)

I have read many of the studies themselves. I read the studies in the journals in which they are published.

My main point is that it is a correlation that these studies are showing, not causation. The fact that people stay married isn't causing their children to be happy and well-adjusted. However, happy well-adjusted children do correlate with parents who stay married. But that is not a function of the mere fact that the parents stayed married. It is because those parents who have a happy, low conflict marriage are more likely to stay married and those parents who are happy and in a low conflict marriages are more likely to raise happy, well-adjusted kids.

Many of these studies that purport to show that staying married is better for children never even attempt to assess the level of conflict in a marriage.

[Tycho Brahe]

Originally posted by Ptolemy
I don't know what Harvard is, but don't these people know that the sun stays in a perfect geometrical circular orbit around the earth? Farther away from the sun? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ridiculous!!

Dude. You have to improve your Instruments and adjust for Atmospheric Correction. If you do, you will see that the Sun and the Moon follow Elliptical Orbits around the Earth, and that the five Planets follow Elliptical Orbits around the Sun, like so:

Come visit me at Uraniborg, where I have made Twenty Years of Astronomical Observations.

[SlaveNoMore]

Pinky
Can someone please explain why everyone loves Nick Johnson? From what I've seen he's an average first baseman, a good hitter but a shitty base-runner. I just don't get it.

You are correct, sir.

[i] I would imagine being in a household where the love between the parents is long gone is an ongoing pain in the ass (like Not Me).

Also -- if the divorce happens the kids are kinda forced to work through the issues internally or with their parents, as opposed to a cold war, where things are more murky.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by dealtoy
Also -- if the divorce happens the kids are kinda forced to work through the issues internally or with their parents, as opposed to a cold war, where things are more murky.

Or the divorce may free the parents for an all out battle -- Dad never slammed Mom's windshield with a sledge hammer while they were married, but he sure did after the divorce.

Moral of the story: divorce or marriage doesn't screw up kids, parents screw up kids.

[NotFromHere]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I have no idea if it's more often the kid than the parents or vice versa. But I do know that kids do pick gender stereotyped toys and it's weird. I hear this from lots of other parents, of both boys and girls, and have seen it plenty of times myself.

That's why the last toy I bought for a girl was Bob the Builder. Her mom was surprised how much she and her sister really fought over that toy. Isn't a lot of the choice based on what you already have? Like I already have a Barbie, but I'd like another one. If you've never had a Tonka truck, then you're not really going to be drawn to it.

My friends who were girls were given Barbie and Ken dolls when we were kids, but we were always stealing the brother's GI Joe when he wasn't looking.

[Not Me]

This abstract below articulates what I am talking about. It isn't the fact that the parents get divorced that matters. It is the level of conflict in the parental relationship that matters. It just so happens that high conflict marriages tend to end in divorce. That is why you see the correlation between divorce and problem children. But it isn't the divorce per se that caused it. It is the marital conflict.

[You can e-mail her jbkellyphd@mindspring.com if you want to discuss this further]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2000 Aug;39(8):963-73.

Children's adjustment in conflicted marriage and divorce: a decade review of research.

Kelly JB.

Department of Psychiatry, University of California at San Francisco, USA. jbkellyphd@mindspring.com

OBJECTIVES: To review important research of the past decade in divorce, marital conflict, and children's adjustment and to describe newer divorce interventions. METHOD: Key empirical studies from 1990 to 1999 were surveyed regarding the impact of marital conflict, parental violence, and divorce on the psychological adjustment of children, adolescents, and young adults. RESULTS: Recent studies investigating the impact of divorce on children have found that many of the psychological symptoms seen in children of divorce can be accounted for in the years before divorce. The past decade also has seen a large increase in studies assessing complex variables within the marriage which profoundly affect child and adolescent adjustment, including marital conflict and violence and related parenting behaviors. This newer literature provides provocative and helpful information for forensic and clinical psychiatrists in their work with both married and divorcing families. CONCLUSIONS: While children of divorced parents, as a group, have more adjustment problems than do children of never-divorced parents, the view that divorce per se is the major cause of these symptoms must be reconsidered in light of newer research documenting the negative effects of troubled marriages on children.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 10939225 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]