Still Hating America.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
In order...

1. The Left will not condemn what Iran did, even though it condemns what the US does. That is the issue. You condemned Iran, but you're not The Left. You're a lawyer on a chat board who, though holding some of the Left's bona fides, would be seen be the most strident lefties as intolerably moderate.

2. I understood your argument and respect the position that it is always wrong, period. But I don't think that argument is properly used here. Club's point that started all of this was that the Left is inconsistent in its criticisms of torture. That's a limited issue, and its hard to reach any conclusion that the Left is not disingenuous on it.

3. You're right, and I think that's the Left's only rebuttal to Club's point. What Iran did to these sailors is not comparable to Guatanamo. In fact, I wouldn't even try to argue that. Were we in court, I'd stipulate to it. But I probably wouldn't have to because the Left would never want to get into the argumene, since the debate would force a squaring of its stance that all psychological torture is wrong with its silence regarding Iran's use of the technique.

Exactly. I'm not concerned with 5 lawyers on a chat board. I'm concerned with the official left and with the international organizations that have routinely condemned our use of torture (rightly or wrongly, not my beaf here).

I could understand if the reason for the silence was based on oil. That would be a rational response. But these same folks are the ones telling Sebby not to drive is SUV, so the only answer I can think of is an anti-Western (i.e., Britain, US, Australia, etc.) bent.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Exactly. I'm not concerned with 5 lawyers on a chat board. I'm concerned with the official left and with the international organizations that have routinely condemned our use of torture (rightly or wrongly, not my beaf here).

I could understand if the reason for the silence was based on oil. That would be a rational response. But these same folks are the ones telling Sebby not to drive is SUV, so the only answer I can think of is an anti-Western (i.e., Britain, US, Australia, etc.) bent.

Who is "the official left"? (And does it make money on merchandising?) Who are "the international organizations that have routinely condemned our use of torture"? The only one I can think of is Amnesty International, and this doesn't sound like their thing (because it involves another country's military).

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Who is "the official left"? (And does it make money on merchandising?) Who are "the international organizations that have routinely condemned our use of torture"?

You know. George Soros and them other Jew bankers. And Hollywood.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Adder
Einstein, Ty was suggesting, correctly, that Iran and other state actors with whom we don't have the rosiest relationship may not see such fine distinctions. Indeed, they may actually think they have a justification for the grabbing and torture. You know. Like you think we do.

if you don't stop making personal hate attacks in every post I will put you on ignore. stick to the issues, please.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Exactly. I'm not concerned with 5 lawyers on a chat board. I'm concerned with the official left and with the international organizations that have routinely condemned our use of torture (rightly or wrongly, not my beaf here).

I could understand if the reason for the silence was based on oil. That would be a rational response. But these same folks are the ones telling Sebby not to drive is SUV, so the only answer I can think of is an anti-Western (i.e., Britain, US, Australia, etc.) bent.

I could see Teddy K. or dean or whoever being critical of the US for crossing lines that they perceive, and still being silent about Iran.

To be critical of Iran is the President's job, but the Dems could complain about what their own country does, if they feel that things are occurring that shouldn't.

I can criticize my family more quickly than the family at the next table in a restaurant.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
if you don't stop making personal hate attacks in every post I will put you on ignore. stick to the issues, please.

your breath stinks and you have very poor fashion sense.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Adder
your breath stinks and you have very poor fashion sense.

PM convo from earlier today:

Ty: hank y not leave adder alone- if we all leave him alone maybe he'll just leave.

Hank: i don't roll like that- if he posts I'll write back. He's dull-normal but harmless.

Ty: fuck that. he pulls down my side of the arguments. I want him gone.

Hank: yeah. he does make the dumbest arguments- i could see why you'd want him gone, or a Rep. LOL. Have a happy Easter!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I could see Teddy K. or dean or whoever being critical of the US for crossing lines that they perceive, and still being silent about Iran.

To be critical of Iran is the President's job, but the Dems could complain about what their own country does, if they feel that things are occurring that shouldn't.

I can criticize my family more quickly than the family at the next table in a restaurant.

Indeed (although I'm not sure that I see "being critical of Iran" in Article III).

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Who is "the official left"?

The official Left are quiet simply people who believe the govt knows better than the people it governs and should have more control over us.

The Left values fairness over competition, and procedure over result. It believes people should be entitled to a decent life even though they bring little to the economic picture.

The Left is the mom who'd go to school and joint the PTA, and complain when her kid got popped on the playground. The Left believes in Darwinisim's complete control, except as to its social variant, despite all the empirical evidence their pseudoacademic minds can handle has been proven for centuries to be intractable and necessary for human progression. The Left can't stomach the process of weeding out that exists in our society, not in insignificant part because few of them have been subjected to it. Their greatest thinkers (Chomsky, Nader...) haven't been much for applying their views.

The Left believes though it will never admit it that the aim of our nation is to press toward an egalitarian Utopia as much as possible.

The Left knows more than any of us on this board, and it's really sure about that.

As I flipped this off, it occured to me just how similar the Left and Right are in this country. Both are just crowds of that certain type of asshole who thinks he knows better about how you ought to live your life. I grew up thinking the Left was live and let live and the Right was an insecure pack of controlling lunatics. The more you look, they're just different stripes of powermad fellow travelers.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by taxwonk
You know. George Soros and them other Jew bankers. And Hollywood.

Yesss. And the Right are those permadrunk, Nascar loving, tobacco chewing, wife beating Jesus junkies. The swine throw the New Yorker aside at the doctor's office in search of People and US... I assume the art on the cover confuses them. No velvet Elvis there. Harrumph, harrumph.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The official Left are quiet simply people who believe the govt knows better than the people it governs and should have more control over us.

The Left values fairness over competition, and procedure over result. It believes people should be entitled to a decent life even though they bring little to the economic picture.

The Left is the mom who'd go to school and joint the PTA, and complain when her kid got popped on the playground. The Left believes in Darwinisim's complete control, except as to its social variant, despite all the empirical evidence their pseudoacademic minds can handle has been proven for centuries to be intractable and necessary for human progression. The Left can't stomach the process of weeding out that exists in our society, not in insignificant part because few of them have been subjected to it. Their greatest thinkers (Chomsky, Nader...) haven't been much for applying their views.

The Left believes though it will never admit it that the aim of our nation is to press toward an egalitarian Utopia as much as possible.

The Left knows more than any of us on this board, and it's really sure about that.

As I flipped this off, it occured to me just how similar the Left and Right are in this country. Both are just crowds of that certain type of asshole who thinks he knows better about how you ought to live your life. I grew up thinking the Left was live and let live and the Right was an insecure pack of controlling lunatics. The more you look, they're just different stripes of powermad fellow travelers.

This reminds me of a poem about left and right:

Left foot, left foot, left foot, right,
Feet in the morning, feet at night....

I think it really says alot more about left and right than your post.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by sgtclub
But these same folks are the ones telling Sebby not to drive is SUV

They think we can untangle from the Middle East by simply not buying its widgets anymore.

You gotta admit, the Left's cute.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
This reminds me of a poem about left and right:

Left foot, left foot, left foot, right,
Feet in the morning, feet at night....

I think it really says alot more about left and right than your post.

Unclear and cryptic can often seem profound. This wasn't one of those instances.

English, please.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The official Left are quiet simply people who believe the govt knows better than the people it governs and should have more control over us.

The Left values fairness over competition, and procedure over result. It believes people should be entitled to a decent life even though they bring little to the economic picture.

The Left is the mom who'd go to school and joint the PTA, and complain when her kid got popped on the playground. The Left believes in Darwinisim's complete control, except as to its social variant, despite all the empirical evidence their pseudoacademic minds can handle has been proven for centuries to be intractable and necessary for human progression. The Left can't stomach the process of weeding out that exists in our society, not in insignificant part because few of them have been subjected to it. Their greatest thinkers (Chomsky, Nader...) haven't been much for applying their views.

The Left believes though it will never admit it that the aim of our nation is to press toward an egalitarian Utopia as much as possible.

The Left knows more than any of us on this board, and it's really sure about that.

As I flipped this off, it occured to me just how similar the Left and Right are in this country. Both are just crowds of that certain type of asshole who thinks he knows better about how you ought to live your life. I grew up thinking the Left was live and let live and the Right was an insecure pack of controlling lunatics. The more you look, they're just different stripes of powermad fellow travelers.

Thank you for naming Chomsky and Nader, and making it clear that you're talking about wingnuts and caricatures.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Thank you for naming Chomsky and Nader, and making it clear that you're talking about wingnuts and caricatures.

No, I'm merely offering them as the most easily recognized academics at the more extreme end of the continuum of what is "Left." I looked for some exaamples of the fat middle of the continuum, but soccer moms who think universal health insurance sounds like a "really good thing," lawyers who've been brainwashed into the notion laws and ragulations can cure all and people who still think their Political Geography professor who privately called Israel "Occupied Palestine" had great points are woefully underpublished. So I cited some of the authors with prominence on many of their bookshelves instead.

Simply put, if you believe in Hillary's platform right now (save her hawkish foreign policy intended to trick some moderate voters), you're on the Left.