Politics As Usual

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Since then, Adelman acknowledged, the group's influence has declined, because "Iraq didn't turn out to be as promising as it was billed."

Adelman, a former Reagan administration official, said that although he supported the rationale for the war, he was torn about what had happened since. "I still have to sort it all out. I'm just not settled yet," he said.

Other neocons worry that the real trouble for them could begin if President Bush is not reelected and, among conservatives, the finger-pointing begins — in their direction.

This "trouble" is fun to think about, but then again it may be fun for me just because the thought begins with "if Bush is not reelected."

Anyway, I think Adelman is being more gracious than others who share(d) his views. It was interested to read in the Chronicle article someone posted a few weeks back* where they asked some leading neocons "how does it feel now that your theory has been discredited" or something equally slanted/unfair. The exec director of PNAC already looked like he was staking out his ground for the upcoming fingerpointing with this quote:

"I'm on the record as saying the occupation would require several hundred thousand troops and the process would take five to 10 years," said Schmitt. "So you didn't get the cakewalk stuff from us. That said, the administration made it harder on itself because, frankly, they planned a military campaign that was quite efficient at getting rid of the government but didn't plan on getting rid of the regime, and the result allowed a lot of Baathist Republican Guard and other insurgents to get their feet under them and create the insurgency we face today.

"I'm willing to say policy was still correct, but I'm not willing to take the blame for people's inability to carry it out in an effective fashion."

It'd be fun to watch cuddly Richard Perle try to employ his usual sneer tactics against some old-school GOP types for a change. But then again, this may only be the figment of a hopeful but out-of-touch lefty mind.


* you may also remember this story for such quotes as "And then the very first foreign policy position taken by this new democratic Iraq, run by their exile friends, would be to recognize Israel, and that would somehow end the Arab-Israeli conflict, bunnies would dance in the streets, and we would find life on Mars." Ah, the fair minded journalism of the Chron. How I love it so.

[Say_hello_for_me]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...building_jenin


Holy jeezus. What kind of refugee camps are these people running, anyway? The Israelis go into Jenin 2 years ago. They destroy lots of buildings in the fighting. My recollection is that Jenin was known for veeery narrow streets and allies, and more than a dozen Israeli soldiers were killed in a single baited ambush.

The article above says the U.N. is not, repeat not, going to continue rebuild the homes of terrorists until the gunmen quit barging into U.N. offices and demanding more and better digs. Apparently, the U.N. is not comfortable having the welfare recipients dictating the amount of welfare. Well, at least not at the point of a gun. So until you terrorists stop threatening me, I'm not going to finish building your homes!

All in favor of letting these guys rebuild Iraq, please show your hands again.

Hello

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
note to conservatives here: if you're just going to dismiss what he says because of who he is, save the electrons and stop reading now

Thank you for the disclaimer. I'm sure it saved 40 valuable seconds of my life.

FWIW if the world is as horrible as Hersh constantly makes it out to be, he should just swallow a bullet already and spare us the histrionics.

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...building_jenin


Holy jeezus. What kind of refugee camps are these people running, anyway? The Israelis go into Jenin 2 years ago. They destroy lots of buildings in the fighting. My recollection is that Jenin was known for veeery narrow streets and allies, and more than a dozen Israeli soldiers were killed in a single baited ambush.

The article above says the U.N. is not, repeat not, going to continue rebuild the homes of terrorists until the gunmen quit barging into U.N. offices and demanding more and better digs. Apparently, the U.N. is not comfortable having the welfare recipients dictating the amount of welfare. Well, at least not at the point of a gun. So until you terrorists stop threatening me, I'm not going to finish building your homes!

All in favor of letting these guys rebuild Iraq, please show your hands again.

Hello

So the UN is incompetent because they took offense at the guys barging into their offices firing semiautomatic rifles? Or because they are trying to rebuild the homes of terrorists?

My sarcasm meter can't seem to differentiate between the different sentences here. I may have to upgrade.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
FWIW if the world is as horrible as Hersh constantly makes it out to be, he should just swallow a bullet already and spare us the histrionics.

I'll bet people said that about My Lai, too.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I actually read this yesterday. This is a new proposal.

The dime was proposed a few years back.

You sound amazingly like Not Me in this post. Pedantic, in an annoying and kinda misleading way.

NMOTD?

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
I'll bet people said that about My Lai, too.

Can we please keep this on topic and keep the discussions about your wife on the FB?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'll bet people said that about My Lai, too.

OK. Nonetheless, reading Hersh is depressing enough to make me want to slit my wrists, and hearing second-hand accounts of Hersh speaking doesn't help the effect any.

If there's anything to what's described there, Hersh should report it (and the pack should follow and see what's there) because it sounds pretty apocalyptic.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'll bet people said that about My Lai, too.

Slave, is there some way to flag/save Ty's most extreme "sky is falling" posts? Seems to me the best answer to each new one would be to post one from 6 months earlier that turned out, umm wrong.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Slave, is there some way to flag/save Ty's most extreme "sky is falling" posts? Seems to me the best answer to each new one would be to post one from 6 months earlier that turned out, umm wrong.

Talk is cheap, assclam. Scroll to the top of the screen and use this button:

Then get back to us.

[Gattigap]

Associated Press reported yesterday:

Reversing itself, the Army said Tuesday that a G.I. was discharged partly because of a head injury he suffered while posing as an uncooperative detainee during a training exercise at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

The Army had previously said Specialist Sean Baker's medical discharge in April was unrelated to the injury he received last year at the detention center, where the United States holds suspected terrorists.

Mr. Baker, 37, a former member of the 438th Military Police Company, said he played the role of an uncooperative prisoner and was beaten so badly by four American soldiers that he suffered a traumatic brain injury and seizures. He said the soldiers only stopped beating him when they realized he might be American.

Bruce Simpson, Mr. Baker's lawyer, said his client is considering a lawsuit.

I hope to God that there are important pieces missing to this story, because otherwise, either we need to update the training manuals, or pay for more trainers.

Good rules of thumb:

• If it's a training exercise, there's at least a slight chance that your "uncooperative detainee" will be American, and that they don't just toss out some spare detainees for practice purposes. (I hope).
  
• If it's a training exercise, you don't really need to beat the person playing the detainee to the point of seizures. Pin 'em to the ground, tear off an ear -- whatever works, but try not to overdo it.
  
• It's good that you stop "when [you] realize he might be American," but I'm afraid that it's probably not the fully exculpatory finding that you might hope.

Gattigap

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Thank you for the disclaimer. I'm sure it saved 40 valuable seconds of my life.

NB: Every once in awhile, even I pass on a lob.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Gattigap
I hope to God that there are important pieces missing to this story, because otherwise, either we need to update the training manuals, or pay for more trainers.

Good rules of thumb:

• If it's a training exercise, there's at least a slight chance that your "uncooperative detainee" will be American, and that they don't just toss out some spare detainees for practice purposes. (I hope).
  
• If it's a training exercise, you don't really need to beat the person playing the detainee to the point of seizures. Pin 'em to the ground, tear off an ear -- whatever works, but try not to overdo it.
  
• It's good that you stop "when [you] realize he might be American," but I'm afraid that it's probably not the fully exculpatory finding that you might hope.

Gattigap

Fucking commie terro-sympathizer.

It's a total and complete coincidence that soldiers in a training exercise beat the interrogee half to death (with apparent intent to make it thru the other half, too). This does not, repeat not, even suggest that American soldiers are being trained to brutally beat (read: torture) prisoners.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
So the UN is incompetent because they took offense at the guys barging into their offices firing semiautomatic rifles? Or because they are trying to rebuild the homes of terrorists?

My sarcasm meter can't seem to differentiate between the different sentences here. I may have to upgrade.

On the one-in-a-million chance that you aren't joking with the alternatives (I'm willing to take even those odds to help you, my friend), I will clarify. The U.N. is incompetent for running "refugee camps" that are absolutely overrun with gun-toting members of terrorist organizations. As an umbrella, i believe the outrage can properly be stated that the U.N. is incompetent for not screening the recipients of their aid to determine the individual's justifiable and compensatable need for relief.

I generally despise public housing in this country, except that which provides for elderly (a bit broad), veterans, and families with dire and unexpected needs like handicapped children that are not the result of personal choices (like gangbangers who get shot into a wheelchair). Yet, while public housing is often overrun by guntoting thugs, just like Jenin, the guntoting thugs aren't frequently known to threaten the public housing officials with death if they don't provided better gigs.

Its hard to like guntoting thugs in either circumstance, but its hard to like the passer-outers of public money when they knowingly distribute the public money to the guntoters, especially if the aid is positively influenced in any way by the guntoting. Yet, the U.N.'s position seems to be, hey, just quit threatening us and we'll give you whatever we can. Of course, that wouldn't be providing aid and comfort to terrorists, would it?

With our money?

Hello

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Gattigap
"Bruce Simpson, Mr. Baker's lawyer, said his client is considering a lawsuit."

Someone should inform Mr. Simpson that injuries incurred while in military service go to the very heart of a little thing I like to call Sovereign Immunity.

Doh!

ETA: I suppose he could sue the individual tortfeasor, but that won't exactly make him real popular down at the Veterans of Popular Wars hall.