Politics As Usual

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
Bad news, Slave. Your blogger seems to place great stock in the fact that Scheherezade's stories got more U.S.-friendly over time, but by that reasoning her most recent story is bad, bad news.

If true, it's really ugly.

Hmm. And no mention whatsoever about all the cash, Syrian passports, weapons cache, etc. I guess all the bad guys left this stuff behind - with all the women and children - when they took off under cover of darkness.

You know, as hard as it is to believe, there are still quite a few people out there that believe Tawana told the truth.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Hmm. And no mention whatsoever about all the cash, Syrian passports, weapons cache, etc. I guess all the bad guys left this stuff behind - with all the women and children - when they took off under cover of darkness.

You know, as hard as it is to believe, there are still quite a few people out there that believe Tawana told the truth.

Like I said, I can believe that there were legitimate targets there. I don't know why you can't believe that we might have fucked up. A wedding at a town along the Syrian border? Maybe there were Syrian nationals there. Maybe they had money. And weapons. In that area, that doesn't seem unusual to me at all. According to the most recent article I posted, an IGC official says the U.S. screwed up, FWIW, which may not be much.

I don't understand why you guys won't take off the rose-colored glasses. They may be why things are so fucked up over there.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Here's a good article by General Wesley Clark on how and why the administration picked the wrong way to try to democratize the Middle East -- they learned the wrong lessions from the Cold War.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
Like I said, I can believe that there were legitimate targets there. I don't know why you can't believe that we might have fucked up. A wedding at a town along the Syrian border? Maybe there were Syrian nationals there. Maybe they had money. And weapons. In that area, that doesn't seem unusual to me at all. According to the most recent article I posted, an IGC official says the U.S. screwed up, FWIW, which may not be much.

I don't understand why you guys won't take off the rose-colored glasses. They may be why things are so fucked up over there.

Because perhaps:

(1) it angers me to no end that everyone around the world is so eager to pounce on every, single uncorraborated source that decries American acts of unbridled barbarism; and

(2) If the "bad guys" have such little regard for the lives of their own loved ones that they would use them as human shields, then I really don't care if any of them die either.

Something tells me we would differ on the answer to this question - if OBL was found to be hiding out in a hospital or an orphanage, do you bomb the place to ruins?

[LessinSF]

Odds on the Dems up to 43/47 bid/ask to pay 100 from a low of 36/40. Iraq, prisons, stock market, Howard Stern. If only the Dems had picked someone with a modicum of charisma.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Because perhaps:

(1) it angers me to no end that everyone around the world is so eager to pounce on every, single uncorraborated source that decries American acts of unbridled barbarism; and

And yet it wasn't that way immediately after 9/11. What did we do to lose their support? Maybe it has something to do with the idiots who think Iraqis only respect force.

(2) If the "bad guys" have such little regard for the lives of their own loved ones that they would use them as human shields, then I really don't care if any of them die either.

Maybe we're losing their support because we're unable or unwilling to try to distinguish between the "bad guys" and wedding parties, and would rather use overwhelming force and let Allah sort them out. That seems to have been what happened at Abu Ghraib, too.

Something tells me we would differ on the answer to this question - if OBL was found to be hiding out in a hospital or an orphanage, do you bomb the place to ruins?

What's the alternative?

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Here's a good article by General Wesley Clark on how and why the administration picked the wrong way to try to democratize the Middle East -- they learned the wrong lessions from the Cold War.

You know I like the guy cept for his baby killing tendencies, but "Democracy and freedom have been ascendant in most parts of the world for at least the last 15 years, and it's hard to imagine that they aren't also destined to take root in the Middle East"?

This makes me want to vomit. This number was picked out of thin air so people could think "and a Democrat was president for 8 -- the majority-- of those years!".

You want freedom and democracy, you better include Reagan. Other than this utterly despicable lack of thought on his part, the article is sorta okay.

[Gattigap]

I just noticed that Ty's dinosaur avatar apparently no longer runs (or even canters, for that matter). Is this what brought the service down recently?

ETA: Apparently, this was just my computer wigging out. Damn x286s.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
Maybe we're losing their support because we're unable or unwilling to try to distinguish between the "bad guys" and wedding parties

Again, why does there have to be a distinction between the two? Don't Baathists have weddings?

What's the alternative?

I think that answers my question.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
(2) If the "bad guys" have such little regard for the lives of their own loved ones that they would use them as human shields, then I really don't care if any of them die either.

Something tells me we would differ on the answer to this question - if OBL was found to be hiding out in a hospital or an orphanage, do you bomb the place to ruins?

(a) So, the disregard of the evildoers for innocent human life has led you to advocate shedding innocent blood with no regret? Perhps you have stared into the Abyss for too long.

(b) Not as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd option. And -- because you would prefer to avoid a hostage situation, you attack by surprise at night with a 2x strength SOF team to bring him out.

If that's not feasible, you park a Predator to watch the place until he moves -- then blow him up.

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
You know I like the guy cept for his baby killing tendencies, but "Democracy and freedom have been ascendant in most parts of the world for at least the last 15 years, and it's hard to imagine that they aren't also destined to take root in the Middle East"?

This makes me want to vomit. This number was picked out of thin air so people could think "and a Democrat was president for 8 -- the majority-- of those years!".

I think you're reading him wrong. He was referring to the fact that the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. He praises Reagan instead of criticizing him, but he says the neo-cons are drawing the wrong lessons from Reagan's successes:

• As an Army officer in and out of Washington, I met many who would later star in the neoconservative movement at conferences and briefings. They're rightly proud of serving under Ronald Reagan, as I am.
  
  * * * * *
  
  So, when Ronald Reagan called the Soviet Union an "Evil Empire," or stood before crowds in Berlin and proclaimed "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall," he was reaching a receptive audience on the other side of the wall. The neoconservatives persist in seeing a vast difference between Reagan's policy of confronting the Soviets and previous American administrations' tack of containing it. In fact, it was precisely those decades of containment and cultural engagement that made Reagan's challenge effective.
  
  * * * * *
  
  But if the events of the last year tell us anything, it is that democracy in the Middle East is unlikely to come at the point of our gun. And Ronald Reagan would have known better than to try.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Again, why does there have to be a distinction between the two? Don't Baathists have weddings?

If you think the path to democracy in the Middle East involves helicopter attacks on Baathist weddings, you should think again.

I think that answers my question.

BS. Are you bombing a hospital because you don't want to risk the casualities of a Special Forces attack that might capture him, or because he might escape before you can do anything else?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
You know I like the guy cept for his baby killing tendencies, but "Democracy and freedom have been ascendant in most parts of the world for at least the last 15 years, and it's hard to imagine that they aren't also destined to take root in the Middle East"?

This makes me want to vomit. This number was picked out of thin air so people could think "and a Democrat was president for 8 -- the majority-- of those years!".

You want freedom and democracy, you better include Reagan. Other than this utterly despicable lack of thought on his part, the article is sorta okay.

Look hardass -- that number (15 years) roughly coincides with the dissolution of the U.S.S.R. and its Eastern European empire.
Coincidence? You decide.

RR had ridden off into the sunset by then. (The GOP has been shouting "Shane! Come back, Shane! Shane!" ever since.)

S_A_M

[Paulie]

ah, shit. never mind.

[SlaveNoMore]

Secret_Agent_Man
(a) So, the disregard of the evildoers for innocent human life has led you to advocate shedding innocent blood with no regret? Perhps you have stared into the Abyss for too long.

Perhaps. But when that building came down a few blocks from me, the age of civilized warfare - in my eyes - had ended. I far from advocate the shedding of innocent blood, but by the same token, a have little to any remorse over it if we accomplish the mission at hand

(b) Not as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd option. And -- because you would prefer to avoid a hostage situation, you attack by surprise at night with a 2x strength SOF team to bring him out.

If that's not feasible, you park a Predator to watch the place until he moves -- then blow him up.

How very Wolfowitzian of you, Rambo.


S_A_M [/QUOTE]