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Old 06-28-2004, 10:03 PM   #3181
sgtclub
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new signs of desperation from the re-election folks

Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Since bilmore and sgtclub were critics of the ad submitted to Moveon that compared Bush to Hitler, I'm assuming that they'll be among the first to complain about the new Bush-Cheney ad that juxtaposes shots of Kerry and other Democrats with Adolf Hitler. If you want to feel icky, you can see it here. Shower not included. If you want to read about it, you can read about it here (hand soap not included).


Not John Kerry.


Not in good taste.
You must be kidding. The whole point of the add was to show what the moveon.com folks have been saying (in fact, the moveon.com legend appears in the corner) and to contrast that with the optimism of the Bush campaign.

ETA: I watch it again. I agree, the intent is there and it is in bad taste. I didn't get that the first time I watched it.

Last edited by sgtclub; 06-28-2004 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 06-28-2004, 10:45 PM   #3182
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new signs of desperation from the re-election folks

Quote:
Originally posted by sgtclub
I watch it again. I agree, the intent is there and it is in bad taste. I didn't get that the first time I watched it.
Dissent.
the intent is to show the perspective of Moore, or Gephardt or whoever, and in context of their sister spots. all but one of the spots is a certifiable nut calling the POTUS a crazed killer. the other is by someone who is nuts saying Bush=Hitler. Buy into one- take the bunch.

Roll it, and Ty your fucking right you should wash your hands- of your vile party. If I put together a greatest hits of the Rolling Stones tape- I'm not a songwriter- that's still Jagger-Richards.
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Old 06-28-2004, 10:58 PM   #3183
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new signs of desperation from the re-election folks

Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Dissent.
the intent is to show the perspective of Moore, or Gephardt or whoever, and in context of their sister spots. all but one of the spots is a certifiable nut calling the POTUS a crazed killer. the other is by someone who is nuts saying Bush=Hitler. Buy into one- take the bunch.

Roll it, and Ty your fucking right you should wash your hands- of your vile party. If I put together a greatest hits of the Rolling Stones tape- I'm not a songwriter- that's still Jagger-Richards.
That could have been accomplished in a different way. By flashing the Hitler image as if he was just another of the anti-Bush speakers, the clear intent is to compare those speakers to Hitler. Granted, there was a half-hearted attempt in the text at the beginning to explain the intent of the piece, but that does not cleanse the filth.

I hate to say it Hank but I think that makes you 41-7.

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Old 06-28-2004, 11:00 PM   #3184
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It's the John, Arnold and Rudy show!

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Originally posted by Gattigap


And we know that's not what the GOP convention goers will want. They want to have some Good, Old-fashioned Fun!

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WORD!
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:33 PM   #3185
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It's the John, Arnold and Rudy show!

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Originally posted by the Spartan
WORD!
I just wanted to comment how pleased I have been with your demeanor. you are so much more agreeable since your return. Its like someone once said, if you want to have friends- be friendly! You have certainly taken that to heart.
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:38 PM   #3186
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new signs of desperation from the re-election folks

Quote:
Originally posted by sgtclub
By flashing the Hitler image as if he was just another of the anti-Bush speakers, the clear intent is to compare those speakers to Hitler.
Exactly. Each of the speakers is someone who says stuff stridently, but its w/o any truth. the Dems are different than hitler in that They are all failures whereas Hitler fooled people for awhile. Legitimate point. Certainly i would never equate them to Hitler substantively. Only the Bush haters would do that to an American pol.
Quote:
I hate to say it Hank but I think that makes you 41-7.
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I was a quasi-judicial agent empowered by the under Sec. of Commerce to reach decisions. unless you have some similar history, you're not authorized to reach this decision. No offense.
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:48 PM   #3187
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It's the John, Arnold and Rudy show!

Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I just wanted to comment how pleased I have been with your demeanor. you are so much more agreeable since your return. Its like someone once said, if you want to have friends- be friendly! You have certainly taken that to heart.
Its the cialis. thanks for noticing.

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Old 06-29-2004, 12:56 AM   #3188
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new signs of desperation from the re-election folks

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Originally posted by sgtclub
I hate to say it Hank but I think that makes you 41-7.
The important thing is that Hank is out there giving 110% every time.
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:21 AM   #3189
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Breyer and Scalia in Hamdi

Here's an interesting post by Eugene Volokh:

Quote:
Justices Scalia and Breyer:I've only read the Hamdi case so far, but here's a tentative thought (subject to revision as I read the other cases and rethink the matter) — two significant facts in this case are that Justice Scalia voted against the government, and Justice Breyer voted (partly) in favor of the government.

This is because these votes may well change the political dynamics within the conservative and liberal movements. I know there are quite a few conservative lawyers and policy wonks who are uneasy (whether rightly or wrongly) with broad assertions of military powers even during wartime. And I'm pretty sure there are quite a few liberal lawyers and policy wonks who are uneasy (again, whether rightly or wrongly) with what they see as a September 10th attitude towards civil rights during wartime.

But many such people may find it hard to argue these positions within their own movements, because (1) they may themselves be unsure of their positions, and (2) it's always hard to argue to one's friends something that seems like it's supporting "the other side." I'm not speaking here of fear of professional retaliation or such things — I'm speaking of the natural and often laudable human tendency to question one's own views when they contradict those that are held by people one likes and respects, and of the natural human tendency not alienate one's friends by seeming to join their political enemies. The tendency is only a tendency; many conservatives have disagreed with some of the Administration's actions in this field, and many liberals have agreed with the Administration. But I suspect that some in both camps have been reluctant to do so, for the reasons I note.

In such situations, having allies that are authoritative within one's own movement can greatly embolden dissenters within those movements. It's much harder for conservatives to harshly criticize fellow conservatives for adopting a position that Justice Scalia has adopted. A conservative who quietly holds such seemingly "liberal" views would thus be reinforced in those views, and emboldened to voice them. Many of his fellow conservatives will still disagree with him; but he'll suspect that the disagreement will be more cordial, and less firm, if he can enlist Justice Scalia on his side.

Likewise, I suspect, for many liberals who can enlist Justice Breyer on their side. Breyer is probably not as liberal on constitutional issues as Justice Scalia is conservative (though that's of course hard to measure). I also suspect that he's not as important to liberals as Justice Scalia, who has long been one of the leaders of the conservative legal movement, is to conservatives. Still, his votes on race preferences, on federalism, on many (though not all) criminal justice cases, on many (though not all) church-state cases, and in other fields make him quite respected by most liberals. So a liberal lawyer will thus feel more comfortable making at least mildly pro-Administration arguments (recall that Justice Breyer voted partly for the Administration and partly against it here) when he can point to Justice Breyer's vote.

Again, I stress that I'm talking here just of factors that may influence how firmly people hold their views, and how vocal they are about those views — they're unlikely to vastly sway large groups of people (in part because most liberals voted against Justice Breyer's views, and most conservatives voted against Justice Scalia's). Furthermore, I'm speaking here only of effects in legal or policymaking circles; I'm not sure how much the public at large is influenced by Justice Breyer's or Justice Scalia's views.

But these are important circles. It matters how often conservatives are willing to make arguments skeptical of military power to other conservatives, and how often liberals are willing to make arguments that support military powers to other liberals. And I think that Justice Scalia's and Justice Breyer's votes will indeed affect the frequency of such intramovement arguments — arguments that I think are on balance good, both for the country and (at least in the medium and long run) the movement — and thus have significant extralegal effects as well as purely doctrinal ones.
from The Volokh Conspiracy
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:34 AM   #3190
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Changing of the Guard

First Bob Bartley died, and now this

Jesus wept.

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Old 06-29-2004, 01:40 AM   #3191
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Changing of the Guard

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
First Bob Bartley died, and now this

Jesus wept.

Damn, you scooped me. I was just about to post that. Whatever your politics, you have to admire this man. He held and fostered a point of view, which was then unpopular. It's easy to be a conservative today (except in SF, NYC, and Beantown), but it wasn't always so.
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:56 AM   #3192
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Changing of the Guard

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Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Jesus wept.
I hear Karl Rove is working on it, but I don't think Jesus is taking sides yet on the left/right thing.
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Old 06-29-2004, 02:27 AM   #3193
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Changing of the Guard

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Tyrone Slothrop
I hear Karl Rove is working on it, but I don't think Jesus is taking sides yet on the left/right thing.
It's not a true left/right thing. Jesus was an anti-communist moderate.
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Old 06-29-2004, 02:27 AM   #3194
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new signs of desperation from the re-election folks

Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Dissent.
the intent is to show the perspective of Moore, or Gephardt or whoever, and in context of their sister spots.
Are either running for president?

I once worked as a Christmas tree salesman. Unless you've done that, you're not allowed to cut yourself such sweetheart deals. Enjoy your 41-7.
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Old 06-29-2004, 02:36 AM   #3195
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More on Moore

David Icke has added his voice to those criticizing Moore's movie. I would just post a link, but the url is just to his main address, www.davidicke.com

FAHREN-HYPE 9/11

MOORE MOVIE BIGGER ON PROMOTION
THAN CUTTING EDGE CONTENT

By David Icke

I've just watched the Michael Moore documentary, Fahrenheit 9/11, on its first day of public screening in the United States.

First of all it is great to see that information kept from the people, basic as it is in this documentary, is being made available to counter some of the massive bias in the mainstream media. To Americans who know nothing about the political and media manipulation it will be a revelation, but those who have done a modicum of research will find little here to increase their awareness.

The documentary misses an enormous opportunity to reveal the true scale of the conspiracy behind 9/11 and current events. It reveals that Bush is a lazy, incompetent fool; that the bombing of Iraq caused horrific civilian casualties; that US troops are being killed and maimed to defend an invasion justified by a Big Lie; that the parents of those civilians and troops suffer unspeakable emotional trauma from losing their loved ones; that Bush was scammed into power at the last election; that the Bush family has serious connections to the Bin Laden family and the Saudi royals; and that the corporate cartels make fortunes both from supplying the weapons to destroy cities and infrastructure and then by 're-building' the devastated countries and seizing control of their resources, like oil.

All this information needed to be included, of course, but it is widely available either by scanning a vast stream of Internet sites or often even through some parts of the mainstream media. In the case of Bush being a lazy, incompetent fool, you only need your eyes and a few brain cells.

I have seen BBC documentaries about the government/media slanting of the invasion of Iraq and the way the U.S. authorities are targeting the poor and jobless to join the military that tell the same story that Moore does.

Yes, it is good that Americans are getting a chance to see such material, but to justify the colossal hype this documentary has received it surely should have gone much further and produced background that would never be found in any mainstream media source. After all, it cannot be claimed that such information is not available to Michael Moore.

Most disappointing was the way he accepts and perpetutates the official 9/11 story that it was orchestrated by Osama bin Laden via 19 Arab terrorists, mostly Saudis, who learned to fly jumbo jets at one engine, two-seater, flying schools. This is blatantly ludicrous and the information to expose such nonsense can, once again, be found at a long list of 9/11 websites and books.

In fact, I sent a copy of Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster to Michael Moore some 18 months or so ago when he was speaking in London. Some of the most basic information in the book and on the Internet is included in the film, but the most important background to 9/11 is not even mentioned.

As with Bowling for Columbine, Moore picks an easy and obvious target while often massively missing the point. Getting rid of Bush is not going to change anything except the rhetoric and the presentation. The agenda will continue whichever of them should win. Where was the fact that both Bush and Kerry are initiates of the same elite and Skull and Bones Society, for example, which both refuse to talk about?

Any suggestion that Iraq was about more than just oil and money or that there is a conspiracy behind world events is not even mentioned, except for one contributor who tells us that there is no conspiracy to control the world. It is all just about money, he said.

Where was the story of the Project for the New American Century and its document that sets out the very agenda for global conquest involving Iraq, Iran, North Korea and China, etc., which the Bush administration has been slavishly following since it came to power under the control of the very people behind the PNAC? Where was the fact that the document said a year before 9/11 that its agenda would be slow to unfold 'absent some catastrophic and catalysing event like a new Pearl Harbor' and that after the 'new Pearl Harbor' of 9/11 those horrific attacks have been used to rapidly advance the PNAC agenda?

These were among many such glaring omissions.

I am delighted the movie is out there, disappointing as I found the depth of research, but the danger is that people will think they now know the information that has been kept from them and therefore fail to realise that Moore has about 2% of the real background to global events and control. Or that they will focus themselves on targeting and removing Bush when he is just a puppet and Kerry would be another.

Outside the theatre where I watched the documentary there were activists seeking to use it to attract support for anti-Bush campaigns and to register to vote when the system is so rigged that voting is a quaint irrelevance.

Michael Moore could have used his high public profile and film-making resources to show people the far more fundamental background to global control, the emerging global fascist state, and the real road to freedom.

Instead, unless people realise this is only part - and a small part - of the story behind global events this movie will lead them into another cul-de-sac.

Fahrenheit 9/11 could have been a fantastic contribution to human understanding of the forces that manipulate the global population. Instead, I thought it was far too timid, limited and one-dimensional.

It is worth seeing if you know nothing of the world beyond the official story, but what an opportunity lost.
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