Politics As Usual

[Gin Rummy]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Cite to the posts in which you cite posts in which Ty cites disputed parts of the books and in which you provide cites to cite evidence contrary to the cited cites, and I will fuck your sister next Tuesday in exchange for a Happy Meal.

If this is what passes for serious political intercourse from a leftist, then as I suspected, you and the rest of the liberal braintrust here are what is called putzes in yiddish and real dimocrit dopes in the english that's spoken in the red states of America.

[Gin Rummy]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Which gets us back to the point. Do you really believe that the difference in covereage has nothing to do with :

1. the existence of photos and videos;

These photos exist, when is Comrade Rather going to show them on a nightly basis?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Which gets us back to the point. Do you really believe that the difference in covereage has nothing to do with :

1. the existence of photos and videos;

2. the fact that the coverage of the Iraq war itself is much higher than of this UN action, and in fact higher than the coverage of any other story in the entire world (NOTE: this applies to both positive and negative aspects. If Kofi Annan decided to fly onto an aircraft carrier to declare "Mission Accomplished" in the Congo, I doubt that it would get the same level of coverage as Bush's photo op did);

3. the evidence that the conduct of US soldiers at Abu Ghraib goes beyond a few bad apples flouting the rules.

No, with respect to 1 and 2, and I never claimed otherwise. On 3, I have heard rumors, but there doesn't appear to be any hard evidence to date. I will keep looking though.

Frankly, in my mind the problem is not what we did to these people, but that we may have done things to people that didn't deserve it. I see no issue with humiliating people if it will cause them to give up information that will save American lives.

I understand that there may have been more than just humiliation going on, but it is also my understanding that the evidence so far has yet to bear this out.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
And you do.

But you seem to be upset that the conduct of UN soldiers is not getting daily front-page attention, when the UN action itself is barely getting any press attention at all. (Can you show me a single front-page story from the past week?)

If your theory -- that the media loves anything the UN does -- were remotely supportable, then the UN's actions in the Congo and elsewhere would be lauded in the press daily. In that case, the media's silence on misconduct of the UN soldiers involved would be evidence of media bias.

The good things the UN does is getting about as much press as the good things the US has done. What I find irritating is that the bad things the US has done gets far more attention than the bad things the UN does.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Frankly, in my mind the problem is not what we did to these people, but that we may have done things to people that didn't deserve it. I see no issue with humiliating people if it will cause them to give up information that will save American lives.

I understand that there may have been more than just humiliation going on, but it is also my understanding that the evidence so far has yet to bear this out.

I agree if the techniques could work to get good intelligence and if no one was raped or murdered. From what I have heard a few purported intelligence experts say, though, is that at least some of these techniques may get you information, but not good information. I don't know if that is true or not.

eta - the photos I have seen don't amount to a violation of the GC. If someone was raped or murdered, that does violate the GC.

eta eta - now that I think about it, taking photos that identify POWs would constitute a violation of the GC. While this is a violation, and should not have been done (at least in the case of the POWs as opposed to criminal detainees), taking a picture in and of itself is not an egregious violation.

[The Larry Davis Experience]

"It's extremely difficult to govern when you control all three branches of government," says Hastert spokesman John Feehery.

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Originally posted by sgtclub
The good things the UN does is getting about as much press as the good things the US has done. What I find irritating is that the bad things the US has done gets far more attention than the bad things the UN does.

I thought it would be obvious why the US media are going to give more airtime to what US troops do than what Moroccan troops do. If a Moroccan swimmer gets busted in the Balco investigation, the media's focus is still going to be on Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery, even though they haven't been busted yet, because we're an inherently self-centered country. But I guess in either case you can assign nefarious motives if you want to.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Not Me
I agree if the techniques could work to get good intelligence and if no one was raped or murdered. From what I have heard a few purported intelligence experts say, though, is that at least some of these techniques may get you information, but not good information. I don't know if that is true or not.

eta - the photos I have seen don't amount to a violation of the GC. If someone was raped or murdered, that does violate the GC.

You mean you'll get upset about the photos only if it depicts a rape or murder taking place during the photo?

There are ample ones depicting grinning GIs over the obviously dead bodies of prisoners. (spree: article about them, not the pics themselves.)

I take it that this is "suggestive" of GC violations only, however, and therefore not worthy of your condemnation. May be worth a giggle or two, though.

Gattigap

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
My references to blogs and opinion pieces are directed toward Ty.

Bilmore has tried this before, but it always founders when you look at, say, an actual post of mine. If I cite a blog for a fact, it's because it cites to the sort of hard news that you like. To figure this out, though, you'd have to actually click on one my links. If you want to prove that you are too lazy to try to back it up, stick with this crap.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Please cite to all disputed parts of Against All Enemies and Plan of Attack that were cited here by either Ty or me.

If you find something wrong with Plan Of Attack, be sure to copy the Bush campaign. According to the Washington Post, "Bush's closest aides, who typically resist efforts to pull back the Oval Office curtains, are actively promoting sales of the book."

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Not Me
Cite to the posts in which you or Ty cited to those books and I will point them out for you.

Sorry. I'm busy doing research for slave. Maybe if you're nice to MR, he'll teach you how to use the search function.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Not Me
So what?

You are right. It is all pure coincidence:
-- the place where the torture occurred is where the high-intelligence value prisoners happened to be;

-- it is also where the intelligence officers and mercs (the same ones who applied these same techniques in Afghanistan) happened to be;

-- those intelligence officers and mercs just happened to be present for the interrogations (as shown by the photos);

-- all of the dozens of people captured in all of these photos were "dumb-asses" and thought that posing for something that they knew to be a crime (based on the training they received on the GC -- training they indisputably did not receive, despite your speculation to the contrary);

-- these hillbillies applied torture techniques that they remembered from the training THAT YOU SPECULATE they received on what might happened to them if they were made POWs --- because, of course, it is extremely likely that prison guards transferred into Iraq four months after the end of major combat operations might be made POWs, and therefore would receive training on the subject;

-- there were no reports of such torture in the 1991 Gulf War because, um, digital cameras hadn't been invented, and therefore it was impossible for soldiers to talk about the events (as they have about the torture at Abu Ghraib), or for videos to be taken (as they were here), for the Red Cross to report on it (as occurred here)

Yup. It's all coincidence. And everyone who thinks to the contrary is just another anti-American hatemonger.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
The good things the UN does is getting about as much press as the good things the US has done.

Cite, please. And not to the UN's involvement in Iraq; that's getting attention because it's about Iraq. I want a cite to the good things the UN is doing in Congo.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
The good things the UN does is getting about as much press as the good things the US has done. What I find irritating is that the bad things the US has done gets far more attention than the bad things the UN does.

I'm hoping to get back to your longer post above, but I note this:

Bad things done by Uruguayan and Moroccan troops in blue helmets = "the bad things the UN does"

Bad things done by US troops in camo helmets = the actions of a few bad apples, but not to be attributed to the country or the administration

[SlaveNoMore]

Shape Shifter
Sorry. I'm busy doing research for slave. Maybe if you're nice to MR, he'll teach you how to use the search function.

How is that coming along?