Hp&hbp Spoilers

[Replaced_Texan]

652 pages, done.

I cried for the last three chapters.

[andViolins]

Just to get things started off on the only "real" spoiler, I found this site to be pretty amusing:

http://www.livejournal.com/community...c/1141079.html

Some of the good ones:







aV

[dtb]

I knew the HBP was Snape. (I predicted it on a HP website I follow -- where I've been designated a "Super Sleuth"! Thank you -- that was my proudest day...).

You know what made me cry? The scene with Fleur and Mrs. Weasley in the infirmary where it's clear that Fleur is in love with Bill. That still makes me get a lump in my throat.

Oh -- and another scene -- when Harry tells DD that he confessed to the Minister that he was DD's man through and through, and DD can't speak because he's so touched. My eyes are welling with tears now just thinking of it. (Also heard some sad news today -- that may also have an impact on my tendency to become easily verklempt today.)

I thought the maturing of the kids was very, very well done.

[andViolins]

Originally posted by dtb
I knew the HBP was Snape. (I predicted it on a HP website I follow -- where I've been designated a "Super Sleuth"! Thank you -- that was my proudest day...).

You know what made me cry? The scene with Fleur and Mrs. Weasley in the infirmary where it's clear that Fleur is in love with Bill. That still makes me get a lump in my throat.

I thought the maturing of the kids was very, very well done.

Well then Super Sleuth - any idea who R.A.B. could possible be?

aV

[dtb]

Originally posted by andViolins
Well then Super Sleuth - any idea who R.A.B. could possible be?

aV

Regulus Black

[dtb]

Originally posted by andViolins
Just to get things started off on the only "real" spoiler, I found this site to be pretty amusing:

http://www.livejournal.com/community...c/1141079.html

Some of the good ones:







aV

I can't see the first one (restricted on my computer as "Chat"), but pictures one and two made me LOL -- I don't get the third one, although I recognize the phrase as someone's "sign-off" thingy from the boards.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by andViolins
Just to get things started off on the only "real" spoiler, I found this site to be pretty amusing:

http://www.livejournal.com/community...c/1141079.html

Some of the good ones:







aV

Heh. There's some obsessive commentary over at http://www.livejournal.com/users/gar...aves/3409.html regarding the book. Up to 629 comments so far.

I agree that Sirius's brother is the most likely candidate for RAB, and I'm thinking that Kreacher the house elf is going to know where to find all of the Horcruxes. There's some delicious irony in the fact that Harry inherited everything in that house.

Snape had to have killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders. It took me two chapters to realize that Dumbledore was actually dead (though that phoenix thing that Harry saw during the funeral makes me wonder how dead he really is...). I thought it was an elaborate set-up for Draco and the death-eater's benefit. Though, I guess I still think it was an elaborate set-up, just a little further than I would have liked.

A friend of mine thinks that Harry is a Horcrux, though I'm not so certain.

Ron and Hermione? Very close after the funeral. Do you think they're closer?

[dtb]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Heh. There's some obsessive commentary over at http://www.livejournal.com/users/gar...aves/3409.html regarding the book. Up to 629 comments so far.

A friend of mine thinks that Harry is a Horcrux, though I'm not so certain.

Ron and Hermione? Very close after the funeral. Do you think they're closer?

AAAGH!

What does it say? (The highlights are fine -- I can't access those links.)

I can't believe anyone ever thought there was a question that Ron and Hermione "fancied" each other, and I thought Harry and Ginny would end up together too -- but that's not an important part of the story to me. I hope H and Ginny "get back together" in the last book.

I, too, thought Harry somehow must contain part of LV's soul -- even before HBP. Details fuzzy, but I'd love to know what others' views are.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by dtb
AAAGH!

What does it say? (The highlights are fine -- I can't access those links.)

I can't believe anyone ever thought there was a question that Ron and Hermione "fancied" each other, and I thought Harry and Ginny would end up together too -- but that's not an important part of the story to me. I hope H and Ginny "get back together" in the last book.

I, too, thought Harry somehow must contain part of LV's soul -- even before HBP. Details fuzzy, but I'd love to know what others' views are.

The first one:

• Theories (and Spoilers)
  So, I said this journal would only be for fanfiction, but I can't resist posting these thoughts on HBP. Here be spoilers, so proceed at your own risk.
  
  
  
  Dumbledore's End, Snape's Betrayal, R.A.B.'s Note, and Mundungus' Thieving
  
  First of all, R.A.B. has to be Regulus Black. This has practical implications for Harry because, when he figures it out, it will help him find the real locket Horcrux.
  
  Where is the locket? On page 116 of OotP (U.S. paperback edition), Sirius and the kids are cleaning out an old cabinet which contains items such as a snuffbox with Wartcap powder, a music box, and a 'heavy locket which none of them could open'. I'd bet that's the locket in question.
  
  Now, one of three things could have happened to the locket, which we assume was thrown into the bin with the other things that had been in the cabinet: either it went out with the rest of the rubbish, or Kreacher nicked it (and Harry will have to go back to Grimmauld Place to retrieve it) or Mundungus stole it and fenced it. I'm willing to bet on this last one; why else would the scene with Mundungus and the stolen Black family silver have been given such prominence in HBP, except to remind us of Mundungus' activities so that it's not a shock when JKR brings it back up in the seventh book?
  
  Aside from the practical implications for getting and destroying the locket, Regulus' note sheds some interesting light on Regulus' death, Dumbledore's death and Snape's 'betrayal'. Why is this?
  
  Regulus states that he knows he will be dead by the time the Dark Lord gets the note. Not because the Dark Lord or anyone else will kill him for stealing the Horcrux (Dumbledore mentions, in his conversation with Harry about Riddle's diary, that Voldemort probably doesn't automatically know when a Horcrux is destroyed); instead, I think Regulus knew that the potion in the cave would most likely kill him when he stole the Dark Lord's locket Horcrux, which changes our conception of his death. Regulus was not, as Sirius said, an idiot who joined up and then got himself killed when he saw what he was asked to do and backed out; instead he found out about some of Voldemort's most precious plans for immortality and made an active attempt to thwart them. He went out in a blaze of self-sacrificial glory.
  
  Now, what does this mean for Dumbledore and Snape? Well, it gives us the knowledge (or at least the hint) that the potion in the cave is probably going to kill the drinker. Dumbledore hints at this too; he implies that, though it won't kill immediately, it will probably leave the drinker alive long enough to cause a lot of pain or perhaps even allow Voldemort to find out who had attempted to steal one of his Horcruxes. The biggest confirmation that the potion is lethal, and that Dumbledore knows or at least suspects it, is that he does not allow Harry to drink it--he all but says that he is expendable and that Harry is not. Also, later, there is the fact that Dumbledore chooses to save Harry (well, save him from himself, really, by Freezing him so he can't do anything rash on the tower) instead of defending himself; defending himself is less important because he knows is going to die anyway.
  
  So Dumbledore knows he is dying during the scenes after retrieving the locket, during the return to Hogsmeade and on top of the tower. Throughout the conversation with Malfoy he grows steadily weaker. Even as he is convincing Malfoy not to kill him, he is already dying (and probably has known he was coming close to death all year anyway, or why would he have taken the trouble to pass his work on the Horcruxes on to Harry?). Dumbledore reasons with Malfoy, not to save his own life but to spare Malfoy having blood and murder on his hands. The fact that Dumbledore is dying anyway would not make Malfoy's act of murder any less despicable, and Dumbledore does not want Malfoy to become a murderer; we get the impression that Malfoy is not naturally evil, anyway, in this scene. He is under extreme coercion.
  
  Things change a bit when the Death Eaters arrive--now there is the new problem of keeping Malfoy alive. Dumbledore knows that, if Malfoy doesn't kill him, Malfoy will probably either be killed on the spot by the Death Eaters or taken to Voldemort, who will kill him.
  
  So, here's my theory: when Snape appears, Dumbledore knows this is the perfect opportunity to accomplish all of his immediate goals--save Malfoy's life and keep him from doing a despicable act, plus allow Snape to fulfill his Unbreakable Vow (which I am sure he knew all about, just as he knew all about Malfoy's plan) and therefore a) not die and b) remain 'in' with the Death Eaters as a spy--and all this simply by doing something he knew he was going to do anyway: die.
  
  However, we are stuck in Harry's POV, so all we see is Dumbledore apparently pleading with Severus for his life, then Snape 'gazing at the professor for a moment' with a 'look of hatred and revulsion' and finally casting the Killing Curse. Later Harry will report this to his friends and members of the Order and it will be seen as a great betrayal (by everyone except Harry, who has 'known' it all along).
  
  But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them? Oh, no. I think Dumbledore is asking Snape, via his thoughts, to kill him. Remember that Dumbledore's pain and delirium in the cave have already led him to ask for release by death ('Kill me,' he says to Harry). Now Dumbledore is a bit more rational, but he sees that his own death at Severus' hands can serve a purpose. His pleas are not for his life but for his death.
  
  Snape does it without question or argument, just as he went back to Voldemort at Dumbledore's behest after the Tri-Wizard tournament. Unlike Harry, Snape takes Dumbledore's word as law.
  
  Reinterpreted in light of a request by Dumbledore, Snape's look of 'hatred and revulsion' takes on a new meaning. This is not hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore personally (or what Dumbledore stands for) so much as hatred and revulsion for being asked to do this to Dumbledore, for being asked to add murder to all of the other things he has done. This may explain also Snape's extreme reaction, later, to being called a coward; he has just been asked to kill the man in whom he placed his trust--the man who has protected him for fifteen years, and for whom he has done dangerous things, including spying and now committing murder in order to keep a student safe and uncorrupted by evil--and has complied with the request. Of course being called a coward after all this, and by Potter, would rankle.
  
  
  [/lecture]
  
  
  The locket/Regulus connection is very close to a sure thing--we know that JKR likes to plant clues for us, and a magically-sealed locket just happening to be in a house once occupied by a person with the initials R.B. (though we don't know about his middle initial) can't be a coincidence. The Snape thing, on the other hand, is much more my interpretation, though I do think the facts support, or at least allow for, it. When I've had a bit more sleep I'll go look up the exact quotes and page numbers...not to mention go back through 'Spinner's End', and see if that sheds any more light on the situation.
  
  By the way, and this is just a completely random thought, you know how JKR tends to get stuck on repeated details? In OotP it was people spilling/slopping/spitting out their juice/Firewhiskey/Butterbeer in surprise or disbelief (Rita and several others; I'll go look that up later). There was also Ron moaning and groaning about food every other chapter. In this book, did you notice just how often people sat down for a drink? The two ministers (whiskey), Snape with Narcissa and Bellatrix (bloodred wine), Dumbledore and the Dursleys (mead), and Slughorn with just about any and everyone, the big old lush. Also, how often Harry called Tom handsome? Just sayin'.
  
  --Garland
  
  
  
  
  ETA: Supporting Quotes
  
  Here are some quotes that support my theories. All page numbers are from the U.S. hardback edition. (Please forgive the rampant academicism, and scroll down if you just want another random thought and some squeeing over Arthur :-)
  
  ‘Mundungus!’
  The squat, bandy-legged man with long, straggly, ginger hair jumped and dropped an ancient suitcase, which burst open, releasing what looked like the entire contents of a junk-shop window…..
  ‘You took that from Sirius’s house,’ said Harry…. (pp. 245-246)
  
  ‘Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?’ Harry asked, ignoring the portraits.
  ‘A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do….’ (p. 507)
  
  ‘Why can’t I drink the potion instead?’ asked Harry desperately.
  ‘Because I am much older, much cleverer, and much less valuable,’ said Dumbledore. (p. 570)
  
  Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore’s mouth….
  Dumbledore…moaned, ‘Don’t hurt them, don’t hurt them, please, please, it’s my fault, hurt me instead…’
  Dumbledore drank, and no sooner had he finished than he yelled, ‘KILL ME!’ (pp. 571 – 573)
  
  He could not understand how it had happened--Expelliarmus was not a Freezing Charm--
  Then, by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore’s wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and understood…Dumbledore had wordlessly immobilised Harry, and the second he had taken to perform the spell had cost him the chance of defending himself. (p. 584)
  
  ‘Yeah, well, you still didn’t realise who was behind that stuff, did you?’ sneered Malfoy, as Dumbledore slid a little down the ramparts, the strength in his legs apparently fading….
  ‘As a matter of fact, I did,’ said Dumbledore. ‘I was sure it was you.’ (pp. 589-590)
  
  ‘Now, Draco, quickly!’ said the brutal-faced man angrily. (p.594)
  
  Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the hard lines of his face.
  ‘Severus…please…’ (p. 595)
  
  ‘Don’t--’ screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them--‘CALL ME COWARD!’ (p. 604)
  
  ‘To the Dark Lord,
  I know I will be dead long before you read this…..I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more. R.A.B.’ (p. 609)
  
  
  
  
  ETA: Random Thought + Squeeing
  
  Here is another random thing that struck me as I was flipping through and looking for page numbers. In the midst of the battle, on page 601:
  
  The giant Gryffindor hourglass had been hit by a curse, and the rubies within were still falling, with a loud rattle, onto the flagstones below.
  
  Is it just me, or is that the death rattle of the school, and of youth, and of silly things like Quidditch and points and petty rivalries? Many reviewers noted that OotP ends without any mention of the House Cup winner, which is appropriate given Harry’s state of mind. Now, however, Harry is not the only one who likely does not care one whit about who won or lost. Whether the school closes or not, students are leaving in droves--including Harry and Draco. They all are facing terrible losses and difficulties, and this image of the broken hourglass (which is of course appropriate--time passing, growing up, &c.) and the spilled points seemed like the most melancholy thing in the world to me.
  
  Which is not to say that I wasn’t laughing madly during a lot of the book. I mean, Slughorn’s faux Death Eater attack? And Roonil Wazlib’s textbook? And Fleur’s happy pillow-fluffing? And Harry telling Goyle he’s ‘very pretty’? And Kreacher reporting that Draco eats in the Great Hall, sleeps in a dormitory, &c.? And Trelawney hiding her empties? And Mollywobbles? And the constipation sensation that’s gripping the nation? And Luna, Luna, Luna…and just everything, everything….
  
  But the number one squee-worthy thing ever of all time:
  
  ‘What is your dearest ambition?’
  ‘To find out how aeroplanes stay up.’
  
  Because I heart Arthur to the ends of the earth and beyond, but also because, for all one might study physics and aerodynamics, flight is still a weird and wondrous thing, and wouldn’t we all like to know?

The second one:

• So, I finished the book earlier today, and I just have one word for you guys: SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
  
  That’s right. I used the “s” word. I’ll do it again. SQUEEEEE!!!!
  
  Ahem, sorry. It’s just…OMFG THIS BOOK KICKED ASS LIKE WHOA. JKR IS FUCKING BRILLIANT, I SAY.
  
  Er…right.
  
  Anyway, naturally I have many more words for you folks...
  
  
  
  
  Okay, I am probably stating the obvious here – at least I think probably lots of folks reached the same conclusion -- but: Harry is a Horcrux, right?
  
  I mean, Lord Voldemort transferred part of his soul to Harry on Oct. 31, 1981. Unintentionally, I’m sure, but something about the way that Lily and James died – their sacrifice – caused that to happen. It’s totally laid out for us earlier – Dumbledore as much as said that Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry*, it’s just that we didn’t know exactly what that meant until now. And, oh, wow, so much makes sense now. The mind connection obviously. The Parseltongue. The wands. The fact that Voldemort specifically wanted Harry’s blood. The fact that Voldemort doesn’t want any one else to kill Harry. The Sorting Hat’s indecision about where to put Harry. Etc. etc. etc. It could even explain the extreme reaction that Harry had to the Dementors – since annihilation and death is what Voldemort fears most, what could be more frightening to that little piece of Voldie’s soul living in Harry than a creature that sucks people’s souls right out of their bodies? But that’s just by the by.
  
  But of course what follows from that is, in order for Voldemort to be completely destroyed, Harry has to die. JKR isn’t just being coy with her audience when she says that Harry might not make it through the series – if we take this to its logical conclusion, then there is no other way to rid the world of Voldemort. Which…wow. Talk about dark!! I. love. it.
  
  Of course there may be some way around that, and I trust that, if JKR decides to spare Harry, it won’t be some lame deus ex machine – yes, Aiglos, I used That Phrase – because at this point I trust her to do pretty much do anything because this book? OMFG. Er. Yeah.
  
  And it’d be kinda cool if, as many speculated, Harry *were* the heir of Gryffindor, because then Voldemort would have, inadvertently, achieved what he wanted – to house his soul in things connected to the Founders.
  
  And I have a lot more thoughts – mainly about Dumbledore and how incredibly difficult this all must have been for him, because I feel sure that he knew all of this from day one. And he must have been afraid of what Harry might have become. That’s why he was always so overcome to see evidence of Harry’s parents in Harry, rather than the evidence of the other person responsible for creating the person that Harry is (so, yeah, in a sense, Harry has to kill his “father.” I mean, how classic is THAT!) And I'm combing through the previous books now for all the times Dumbledore and Snape (who I am convinced also knows all this -- more about him later) take note of Harry's use (deliberate or no) of apparently "Dark" magic. And I LOVE the fact that Voldemort is the one who created his own archenemy – that Harry was nothing but an ordinary baby until Voldemort tried to destroy him. It *could* just as easily have been Neville. The prophecy wouldn’t have come true if Voldemort hadn’t followed it. Man, stuff like that makes me insanely happy.
  
  Okay! I have sixteen trazillion more things to say on this subject, but I’ll leave it for now. Next up, I will talk about SNAPE! OMG SNAPE!!
  
  *I found the quote! Chamber of Secrets, pp. 332-3 (U.S. ed.): "You can speak Parseltonge...because Voldemort -- who is the last remaining descendant (actually my text says "ancestor" but I ASSUME that's a typo) of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm very much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..."
  
  "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck.
  
  "It certainly appears so."
  
  Oh! And I wanted to say something about Horcruxes. There was something about how, you know, crux means cross, and then I was going to write a THREE-VOLUME EXPLORATION OF CHRISTIAN THEMES IN HARRY POTTER, WITH QUOTES AND FOOTNOTES AND BIBLIOGRAPHIES AND EVERYTHING, but that will have to wait for another day. (I bet y'all can hardly wait.)
  
  
  
  Sorry for the babbling, I am just…er. Squee!!!

[dtb]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
The first one:

Excellent!!!!

I loved the first one. I was actually clapping my hands while reading it. How did I not see that?!? (That DD was asking Snape to kill him, and to spare Malfoy's being a killer?)

Just another reason to be sad he had to go; but of course, he had to. No "Quest" story is complete without the hero's having to do his work alone. (JKR says as much in her interview 24 hours after release; the one in Scotland -- although that was in reference to the death of Sirius.)

Are the sites you linked all that good? Who is your friend? (You can PM me if you want.)


ETA: I think it is explicit in the text that DD knows about the Unbreakable Vow -- didn't Harry tell him? (Maybe DD doesn't initially know the subject of the vow, but he can deduce easily.) NBH.

By the way -- I think maybe DD is part [one of those animals of which Karkaroff's cape was made -- listed in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them); I forget why I have thought this in the past, but their swimming in the freezing water brought that back to mind.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by dtb
Excellent!!!!

I loved the first one. I was actually clapping my hands while reading it. How did I not see that?!? (That DD was asking Snape to kill him, and to spare Malfoy's being a killer?)

Just another reason to be sad he had to go; but of course, he had to. No "Quest" story is complete without the hero's having to do his work alone. (JKR says as much in her interview 24 hours after release; the one in Scotland -- although that was in reference to the death of Sirius.)

Are the sites you linked all that good? Who is your friend? (You can PM me if you want.)

Heh. My friends and I spent seven years deconstructing Buffy the Vampire slayer in a similar manner. You should see some of my early work on the nature of the soul c. 1998 and 1999.

I don't know who the first one is. That entry was linked to by another friend. The second one I've known for years through the Buffy boards. I think she lives in your neck of the woods. I imagine that mircalla will be talking about the book for a few days. I'll link her followups.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally posted by dtb
Excellent!!!!

I loved the first one. I was actually clapping my hands while reading it. How did I not see that?!? (That DD was asking Snape to kill him, and to spare Malfoy's being a killer?)

That was good. During the last few chapters, I kept trying to figure out how Dumbledore was not really dead and it was all an elaborate setup, well, at the funeral I pretty much accepted it. After I finished I just sat there in silence thinking, WHOA. I really wish I had more recently re-read OotP.

And kudos on the Super Sleuthing. I didn't figure out who the HBP was until Snape asked to see Harry's schoolbooks.

[dtb]

Originally posted by SEC_Chick
That was good. During the last few chapters, I kept trying to figure out how Dumbledore was not really dead and it was all an elaborate setup, well, at the funeral I pretty much accepted it. After I finished I just sat there in silence thinking, WHOA. I really wish I had more recently re-read OotP.

And kudos on the Super Sleuthing. I didn't figure out who the HBP was until Snape asked to see Harry's schoolbooks.

I knew he was a goner. JKR has made repeated references (in interviews and stuff) to the fact that, in her magical world, once a person is dead, he/she cannot come back from the dead. She thinks it wouldn't be "fair" to write it that way (it would be cheating).

[andViolins]

Originally posted by dtb
I knew he was a goner. JKR has made repeated references (in interviews and stuff) to the fact that, in her magical world, once a person is dead, he/she cannot come back from the dead. She thinks it wouldn't be "fair" to write it that way (it would be cheating).

It struck me while reading HBP that ADD (I just can't get used to referring to Dumbledore as DD - I don't know why. I'm trying to compromise) seemed a lot less "SUPERWIZARD" in this book. Not just after he drank the poison. Starting with his destroyed hand, he just seemed to be not as great and all-mighty as JKR had made him out to be in the first five books. I know that she tried to cover it by discussing his advanced age, etc., but it just seemed to occur extraordinarily quickly. He was a goner from the very start. This was the only wizard that Voldemort was ever afriad of - who battled him in OotP, who took on the ministry and the Aurors, etc., etc. and he just seemed old and tired. Perhaps as was stated in the link (all the theories and spoilers) he was aware of what ultimately was going to happen to him and didn't have his heart in the fight any longer.

aV

[dtb]

Originally posted by andViolins
It struck me while reading HBP that ADD (I just can't get used to referring to Dumbledore as DD - I don't know why. I'm trying to compromise) seemed a lot less "SUPERWIZARD" in this book. Not just after he drank the poison. Starting with his destroyed hand, he just seemed to be not as great and all-mighty as JKR had made him out to be in the first five books. I know that she tried to cover it by discussing his advanced age, etc., but it just seemed to occur extraordinarily quickly. He was a goner from the very start. This was the only wizard that Voldemort was ever afriad of - who battled him in OotP, who took on the ministry and the Aurors, etc., etc. and he just seemed old and tired. Perhaps as was stated in the link (all the theories and spoilers) he was aware of what ultimately was going to happen to him and didn't have his heart in the fight any longer.

aV

There were lots of mentions in OOTP about his seeming older and a lot more tired than he had been. He had to go, I know, but it's so sad! What a great character he is.