Fashion Board 6-9-04 to 7-13-04

[Jack Manfred]

I've been thinking about weddings recently. Friends are getting married. Members of my family are getting married. Members of both camps are going to other peoples' weddings and feeling compelled to discuss them with me. So I've been thinking about them.

Despite recent efforts in Massachusetts and San Francisco, I think there should be fewer weddings. We all know that an entire industry has sprung up around weddings. There are glossy magazines for brides, bridal fairs filled with distributor booths not unlike those tech fairs of the boom days, etcetera, ad nauseum.

What drives this machine? Is it that our society truly cherishes the notion that two people love each other so much that they wish to stand together and declare their undying love for each other before God, State, Family, and Friends? No. That's not it. People talk about marriage and weddings in terms like "right" or "privilege" or "event" or "Her special day" or "more exciting than the most exciting Rose Ceremony ever." None of those things have anything to do with love or commitment.

So then what if anything should be done? Well, if we can agree that there seems to be a disconnect between what weddings signify and what marriage signifies, maybe we can modify the former to strenghen the latter. I actually do think that the institution of marriage needs strengthening. Of course preventing gays and lesbians from marrying does nothing to achieve that goal, but only the most cretinous truly believe that notion anyway. Weddings are injuring the institution of marriage far more than same-sex marriage ever could.

Now some of you may be thinking to yourself, "Well, I was going to be mad at Jack because I thought he was against gay marriage and this isn't even the politics board, but now I've found he's cool with it, but not with weddings, and this seems like a pretty damn long post to argue for more elopements, and if Jack was Jackie, he'd realize that even though a woman may be a feminist and a lawyer and self-aware enough to know that weddings are part of those fairy tale myths that define women even while they injure women, we still want those things. Sometimes we think we shouldn't want them, but we just do. So Jack and all of the other men on the board (and off the board) should just give us those things because the sooner men start giving women what they want, the closer we'll all be to a perfect world."

Well, I can't promise a perfect world, and I don't propose to change society overnight. But we can agree that women are sold a fantasy that their wedding day will be a day devoted solely to them. They'll wear an elaborate dress, more expensive than any other piece of clothing they'll ever wear again. People will attend to their hair and makeup. Pictures will be taken to record their beauty and placed into silver frames to display to all. There will be feasting and dancing as if at a royal banquet. Anything she wants will be given to her. In fact, if someone doesn't know what to get her, they can check a list and chose something she's already picked out. This is starting to sound familiar, right? But while this has a lot to do with how we think of weddings, this has nothing at all to do with what marriage is. While I've not been married, I've been around married people all of my life, and I've not seen a lot of feasting, dancing, or opportunities to pass out lists of requested gifts to family, friends, and people who know your Aunt Millie, happen in regular married life. It's much more about balancing the checkbook, and putting away the laundry, and coordinating how both of us can take time off work for that vacation and agree on a destination. Weddings are elaborate and momentous. Marriages are mundane and perpetual. I think they work at cross-purposes to each other.

But I don't want to be a spoilsport. Remember, I know that women (and of course when I write the word women, I mean some women and not all women, and some of you may have had hippie parents and don't value material things at all and think that weddings should occur only at dawn of the first harvest when Saturn is in the first house, and others of you may think that all weddings should be banned as fascist tools of the patriarchy or capitalism or Rupert Murdoch.)

So I have a proposal.

(Some of you might want to just skip to this part of the post.)

We need to have "coming out" parties for women again. Yes, I'm sure that some people still have cotillions and debuts. After all, I saw Metropolitan and Whit Stilman doesn't seem like he made all of that up from scratch. But that's just some women/girls, in some parts of the country. What if, in lieu of the monstrosity that weddings have become in the last 15-20 years, we said, "Hey, girls, you're still going to get a special day. The big party just for you? The dress? The presents? The dancing? They're all yours. But we're not going to tie any of this to a man.* Or to marriage. Or to romance or love or any of those other concepts that weddings seem to shape and/or influence.

Now Atticus might be thinking, "Hey Jack, just hold on a second while I google up some interesting information about Quinceaneras and Bat Mitvahs and other similar coming-of-age rituals." But of course, that's not necessary, and I've already pointed out that this is supposed to be universal, which those ceremonies are not.

Doesn't this make sense? A woman reaches some set age or milestone, an elaborate party is thrown for her, and weddings revert to simple ceremonies that require a priest/rabbi/minister/justice of the peace and a couple of forms in triplicate, and not much more. Wouldn't this be better for all concerned?

Thoughts? Comments? Sharpened daggers?

* or a woman, where legal and while supplies last. YMMV. NTTAWWT.

[Mister_Ruysbroeck]

Originally posted by Adder
So anyway I don't really know what to do about the whole situation.

I think you should post about it on the internet.

[Mister_Ruysbroeck]

Originally posted by Jack Manfred
I've not seen a lot of ... opportunities to pass out lists of requested gifts to family, friends, and people who know your Aunt Millie, happen in regular married life.

Clearly you're not a member of my family. I'm still making Christmas lists at age 30, and so does everyone else in my immediate family (in-laws included).

Feel free to judge, but we all love doing it. It's fun to dream about what you might get and it's nice knowing that when you buy someone something, they'll really like it.

And yes, we are free to go off-list and often do.

[barely_legal]

Originally posted by Jack Manfred


Now some of you may be thinking to yourself, "Well, I was going to be mad at Jack because I thought he was against gay marriage and this isn't even the politics board, but now I've found he's cool with it, but not with weddings, and this seems like a pretty damn long post to argue for more elopements, and if Jack was Jackie, he'd realize that even though a woman may be a feminist and a lawyer and self-aware enough to know that weddings are part of those fairy tale myths that define women even while they injure women, we still want those things. Sometimes we think we shouldn't want them, but we just do. So Jack and all of the other men on the board (and off the board) should just give us those things because the sooner men start giving women what they want, the closer we'll all be to a perfect world."

Well, I can't promise a perfect world, and I don't propose to change society overnight. But we can agree that women are sold a fantasy that their wedding day will be a day devoted solely to them. They'll wear an elaborate dress, more expensive than any other piece of clothing they'll ever wear again. People will attend to their hair and makeup. Pictures will be taken to record their beauty and placed into silver frames to display to all. There will be feasting and dancing as if at a royal banquet. Anything she wants will be given to her. In fact, if someone doesn't know what to get her, they can check a list and chose something she's already picked out. This is starting to sound familiar, right? But while this has a lot to do with how we think of weddings, this has nothing at all to do with what marriage is. While I've not been married, I've been around married people all of my life, and I've not seen a lot of feasting, dancing, or opportunities to pass out lists of requested gifts to family, friends, and people who know your Aunt Millie, happen in regular married life. It's much more about balancing the checkbook, and putting away the laundry, and coordinating how both of us can take time off work for that vacation and agree on a destination. Weddings are elaborate and momentous. Marriages are mundane and perpetual. I think they work at cross-purposes to each other.

But I don't want to be a spoilsport. Remember, I know that women (and of course when I write the word women, I mean some women and not all women, and some of you may have had hippie parents and don't value material things at all and think that weddings should occur only at dawn of the first harvest when Saturn is in the first house, and others of you may think that all weddings should be banned as fascist tools of the patriarchy or capitalism or Rupert Murdoch.)

So I have a proposal.

(Some of you might want to just skip to this part of the post.)

We need to have "coming out" parties for women again. Yes, I'm sure that some people still have cotillions and debuts. After all, I saw Metropolitan and Whit Stilman doesn't seem like he made all of that up from scratch. But that's just some women/girls, in some parts of the country. What if, in lieu of the monstrosity that weddings have become in the last 15-20 years, we said, "Hey, girls, you're still going to get a special day. The big party just for you? The dress? The presents? The dancing? They're all yours. But we're not going to tie any of this to a man.* Or to marriage. Or to romance or love or any of those other concepts that weddings seem to shape and/or influence.

Doesn't this make sense? A woman reaches some set age or milestone, an elaborate party is thrown for her, and weddings revert to simple ceremonies that require a priest/rabbi/minister/justice of the peace and a couple of forms in triplicate, and not much more. Wouldn't this be better for all concerned?

Thoughts? Comments? Sharpened daggers?

* or a woman, where legal and while supplies last. YMMV. NTTAWWT.

I hope you're kidding. The problem with your sexist proposal is that it assumes that it's only women that want the elaborate wedding ceremony. That is bullshit.

This is probably outable, but what the fuck. I used to work as a wedding planner and in my experience planning dozens of weddings, the groom (and/or the groom's parents) is often just as insistent on a big elaborate wedding as the bride. I agree that generally women are more likely to be insistent on a wedding than men, but not by that large a margin. Grooms just don't get the bad rap as being groomzillas b/c they are lazy and let their brides make all of the arrangements

I will admit that men seem much more interested in the reception than the actual ceremony though.

BTW, I hope that IRL, you have never actually used the phrase "Hey girls."

[Mister_Ruysbroeck]

Originally posted by barely_legal
BTW, I hope that IRL, you have never actually used the phrase "Hey girls."

He prefers "Hey Ladies."

[Alex_de_Large]

Originally posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck
He prefers "Hey Ladies."

Speaking of Beastie Boys (I know you were not, but made a reference to them), I finally listened to "To The Five Boroughs" a couple of times over the weekend. In the end, it's a solid but ininspired effort. Nothing really new, noting really smart, just solid beats and solid rhymes. Not mind blowing, and, in the end, it is therefore a bit disappointing.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by barely_legal
This is probably outable, but what the fuck. I used to work as a wedding planner and in my experience planning dozens of weddings, the groom (and/or the groom's parents) is often just as insistent on a big elaborate wedding as the bride.

That's because they were pussy-whipped momma's boys.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Jack Manfred
[big long women and weddings rant]

Three things (I note that I'm not disagreeing with all of Jack's points, though I think the coming out party thing is pretty silly):

1. Not all women are into the big wedding concept and some even go along begrudgingly with the desires of others (moms, future husbands, etc.). Another problem is that even if the goal is a simple affair with closest friends and family, things tend to spiral out of control due to concerns over hurt feelings of those not invited. blah, blah, blah.

2. Having been to two weddings so far this year, I was reminded how much all weddings are the same. Everyone spends all this time picking out music and readings, etc. and they all end up with the same songs (Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring, Ave Maria) and the same readings (Letter from Paul to the Corinthians). It just cracks me up now whenever I attend a wedding , first thing I do is open the program to confirm that I will hear about how freaking patient and kind love is.

3. I've been watching Bridezillas on Tivo recently (I missed it the first time around) and it is a pretty good commentary on the state of weddings today. It actually doesn't (so far at least) make any of the women seem too out there, but it does show what an event weddings have become and how stressful the planning is for the women having those big events. It seems to me that some portion of the "it's my special day" mentality derives in particular from the amount of freaking work that women do to plan the fucking thing. If you put 200 hours into planning some big party, wouldn't you want to have a really fucking good time there? Otherwise, what's the point?*

And now the gratuitous personal account: When I got married, it was a pretty simple affair that was planned primarily by my ex-mother-in-law (she had only boys, she cared way more about the wedding than either my mom or I did, and she lived in the town where I got married whereas I lived about a thousand miles away). My ex and I gave her parameters and she went to town, running all choices past us. I bought a $400 dress (by no means my most expensive dress/outfit ever) and showed up in town a week early to help with last minute stuff. We had approx. 60 guests. Even so, I'd not go through anything nearly that elaborate again. Just personal preference. Some people get off on having big elaborate parties (and this carries past just the wedding concept) and others don't. If you have a problem with those big weddings, there is a simple solution - check "Will Not Attend" on the RSVP card and be done with it.


*as an aside, a lot of women have a realization after the wedding that all the hard work really wasn't worth it. but alas, they'll never get all the time and money back.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Jack Manfred

* * *

Anything she wants will be given to her.

* * *

I gave up all hope when I read the articles about shiksas demanding bat mitzvahs. Just the party part, of course, not the "learn the torah" and what it all means part.

Your proposal, while thought provoking, seems to be premised on a principle that says the government should buy out the tobacco farmers from the tobacco quotas they were given (by the government) years ago.

A party for the sake of a party? Who deserves that?

[robustpuppy]

Beach. Fiji. Me. Him. The officiant. A handful of others. Linen shift, some tropical flowers, a party somewhere with champagne, dark rum, fresh seafood (especially bluff oysters), fresh fruit. Honeymoon on a sailboat for a week or two of snorkeling, diving, drinking, and making noises that carry far over the water.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
That's because they were pussy-whipped momma's boys.

Damn. Someone needs to put you back on your leash.

[the Spartan]

Originally posted by barely_legal
I hope you're kidding. The problem with your sexist proposal is that it assumes that it's only women that want the elaborate wedding ceremony. That is bullshit.

This is probably outable, but what the fuck. I used to work as a wedding planner and

Aha! I know who you are!! BOC, no worries, your secret is safe with me.

Originally posted by barely_legal
I will admit that men seem much more interested in the reception than the actual ceremony though.

I think you meant to refer to the bachelor party.

Originally posted by barely_legal
BTW, I hope that IRL, you have never actually used the phrase "Hey girls."

I do, but it's only because Chef advised me that it's more polite than saying "yo beeyotches!"

[the Spartan]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

A party for the sake of a party? Who deserves that?

Me. (hi Cooter!)

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Damn. Someone needs to put you back on your leash.

That was a joke. Barely said Jack's proposal was sexist. I made a sexist comment in reply. Get it?

(And I'm sure your wedding would not have been as lovely had you and your mother not been so involved in the planning.)

[the Spartan]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
Beach. Fiji. Me. Him. The officiant. A handful of others. Linen shift, some tropical flowers, a party somewhere with champagne, dark rum, fresh seafood (especially bluff oysters), fresh fruit. Honeymoon on a sailboat for a week or two of snorkeling, diving, drinking, and making noises that carry far over the water.

Sounds good. Smashing infact. Vista la playa et al.

Will you marry me?

eta: assuming (a) that the use of the word "robust" is subject to truth in advertising verification-PM me a photo, confidential; and (2) that you are paying, boc.