Fashion Board 2-3-04 to 3-5-04

[Fugee]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Gotta back up TM here. 'Splain, if you can, how the notion of a just and merciful God equates to anybody being "toast" solely because of non-belief.

Oh, and here's a hint: YOU CAN'T!!!!

Here's my thinking. I do start with three assumptions: (1) That there actually is one ultimate God who created the universe and all of us and that there is life after death (without that assumption, who cares because we die and that's the end, period, nothing more), (2) This ultimate God gave us free will and will honor our choices, and (3) At some point a person's belief or unbelief can become so entrenched that nothing will change his or her mind (as support for this assumption, I give you the Holocaust "revisionists"). I'll do this with a hypothetical.

Let's say this ultimate God is called Fred and the place of eternal bliss with Fred is Fredland. I don't believe Fred is God. Not only that, I affirmatively reject Fred as God until my dying breath (because I said I don't know how God will deal with people who sincerely believe in God under a different name, the hypothetical is that this rejection is not because I think Ralph, not Fred, is God) . Should Fred force me into Fredland against my will? Let's say Fred is unbelievably more merciful than I could ever imagine and decides to give me one last chance to change my mind and believe in Fred just as I'm at the crossroads between Fredland and Nonfredland and reveals emself to me in all ems power and glory but like a little kid, I've (figuratively) got my eyes squeezed shut and am covering my ears yelling "There's no Fred! There's no Fred!" and continue to reject Fred. If Fred nevertheless pulled me into Fredland dsepite my rejection, isn't em disregarding my free will? In saying that people who reject God are "toast," I'm saying under that hypothetical, I would expect Fred to let me spend eternity in Nonfredland.

A lot of you might have trouble with my second assumption and think that God would only be just and merciful if em takes everyone to Heaven despite the choices they make. That is a matter of faith and belief as much as my belief that God honors our free will.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Fugee
Here's my thinking. I do start with three assumptions: (1) That there actually is one ultimate God who created the universe and all of us and that there is life after death (without that assumption, who cares because we die and that's the end, period, nothing more), (2) This ultimate God gave us free will and will honor our choices, and (3) At some point a person's belief or unbelief can become so entrenched that nothing will change his or her mind (as support for this assumption, I give you the Holocaust "revisionists"). I'll do this with a hypothetical.

Let's say this ultimate God is called Fred and the place of eternal bliss with Fred is Fredland. I don't believe Fred is God. Not only that, I affirmatively reject Fred as God until my dying breath (because I said I don't know how God will deal with people who sincerely believe in God under a different name, the hypothetical is that this rejection is not because I think Ralph, not Fred, is God) . Should Fred force me into Fredland against my will? Let's say Fred is unbelievably more merciful than I could ever imagine and decides to give me one last chance to change my mind and believe in Fred just as I'm at the crossroads between Fredland and Nonfredland and reveals emself to me in all ems power and glory but like a little kid, I've (figuratively) got my eyes squeezed shut and am covering my ears yelling "There's no Fred! There's no Fred!" and continue to reject Fred. If Fred nevertheless pulled me into Fredland dsepite my rejection, isn't em disregarding my free will? In saying that people who reject God are "toast," I'm saying under that hypothetical, I would expect Fred to let me spend eternity in Nonfredland.

A lot of you might have trouble with my second assumption and think that God would only be just and merciful if em takes everyone to Heaven despite the choices they make. That is a matter of faith and belief as much as my belief that God honors our free will.

This would work better if the alternative to Fredland were nothingness, not being eternally toasted in hellfire. If God/Fred will honor my choice to be nothingness after death, then I'm fine with that being the consequence of not believing in God/Fred. Otherwise, God/Fred is not honoring my choice not to go to hell by forcing me into hell.

So, do I get nothingness? Or am I "toast"?

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally posted by Fugee
Here's my thinking. I do start with three assumptions: (1) That there actually is one ultimate God who created the universe and all of us and that there is life after death (without that assumption, who cares because we die and that's the end, period, nothing more), (2) This ultimate God gave us free will and will honor our choices, and (3) At some point a person's belief or unbelief can become so entrenched that nothing will change his or her mind (as support for this assumption, I give you the Holocaust "revisionists"). I'll do this with a hypothetical.

Let's say this ultimate God is called Fred and the place of eternal bliss with Fred is Fredland. I don't believe Fred is God. Not only that, I affirmatively reject Fred as God until my dying breath (because I said I don't know how God will deal with people who sincerely believe in God under a different name, the hypothetical is that this rejection is not because I think Ralph, not Fred, is God) . Should Fred force me into Fredland against my will? Let's say Fred is unbelievably more merciful than I could ever imagine and decides to give me one last chance to change my mind and believe in Fred just as I'm at the crossroads between Fredland and Nonfredland and reveals emself to me in all ems power and glory but like a little kid, I've (figuratively) got my eyes squeezed shut and am covering my ears yelling "There's no Fred! There's no Fred!" and continue to reject Fred. If Fred nevertheless pulled me into Fredland dsepite my rejection, isn't em disregarding my free will? In saying that people who reject God are "toast," I'm saying under that hypothetical, I would expect Fred to let me spend eternity in Nonfredland.

A lot of you might have trouble with my second assumption and think that God would only be just and merciful if em takes everyone to Heaven despite the choices they make. That is a matter of faith and belief as much as my belief that God honors our free will.

This Fred seems like a much cooler dude than the God I learned about growing up Catholic. I think I may be an adherent of Fred. A Freddie, iyw.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I have faith that some women just like to have more fun.

I'm pretty sure about that.

[Fugee]

Originally posted by taxwonk
As in "just because he grew up in the rain forests of Myanmar and spent his entire life never encountering a concept like the Western notion of God" or "just because my belief system is better than yours and if you disagree with me you're going to Hell?"

Originally posted by Thurgreed Um, Not Bob, that's my point. She believes those of us who don't pray the way she does is toast. She's not pretty sure of it.

Could you both go back and read what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote? I started by saying I don't know how God is going to deal with people who sincerely believe in God but by a different name. Maybe I should have put a semi-colon or period before my next statement that I'm pretty sure that people who reject God are toast to make it clearer that those were two different ideas. Or maybe you had your minds so made up about me that you would have missed that too.

Besides Wonk, there is stuff in the New Testament about rain forest type people so that's not even a fair characterization of Christianity -- they don't get toasted just because they never heard about Jesus. And before you ask why missionaries go out if that's the case, the answer is that belief in God is about more than a fire insurance policy.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Pretty Little Flower
This Fred seems like a much cooler dude than the God I learned about growing up Catholic. I think I may be an adherent of Fred. A Freddie, iyw.

Please don't get t-shirts made with the picture of Fred from Scooby Doo. Or Fred Flintstone. The Fred I know would not like that at all.

[Alex_de_Large]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
The difference between faith and lying in your example is that neither you nor anybody else believes you have a big cock. That you can easily prove that you don't have a big cock is what differentiates faith from certainty.

That was just too easy...

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Fugee
Let's say this ultimate God is called Fred and the place of eternal bliss with Fred is Fredland. I don't believe Fred is God. Not only that, I affirmatively reject Fred as God until my dying breath (because I said I don't know how God will deal with people who sincerely believe in God under a different name, the hypothetical is that this rejection is not because I think Ralph, not Fred, is God) . Should Fred force me into Fredland against my will? Let's say Fred is unbelievably more merciful than I could ever imagine and decides to give me one last chance to change my mind and believe in Fred just as I'm at the crossroads between Fredland and Nonfredland and reveals emself to me in all ems power and glory but like a little kid, I've (figuratively) got my eyes squeezed shut and am covering my ears yelling "There's no Fred! There's no Fred!" and continue to reject Fred. If Fred nevertheless pulled me into Fredland dsepite my rejection, isn't em disregarding my free will? In saying that people who reject God are "toast," I'm saying under that hypothetical, I would expect Fred to let me spend eternity in Nonfredland.

This hypothetical is just as believable as Fred created Fredland and countless other things and he doesn't really give a shit about any of them. When something dies, they simply move from Fredland to Gingerland and Fred couldn't possibly care less who goes there.

Everything you have said is hypothetical. You believe people are toast because they don't believe what you believe. If you grew up in a different house, you would be just as adamant about that random belief system as you are about this one.

That's why you're a wingnut.

TM

[Fugee]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
This would work better if the alternative to Fredland were nothingness, not being eternally toasted in hellfire. If God/Fred will honor my choice to be nothingness after death, then I'm fine with that being the consequence of not believing in God/Fred. Otherwise, God/Fred is not honoring my choice not to go to hell by forcing me into hell.

So, do I get nothingness? Or am I "toast"?

This comes down to an "I believe this and you believe that" matter of faith. But I don't believe nothingness is one of the options -- you either get eternity in Fredland or Nonfredland and the choice is belief or rejection of Fred, not a choice of location.

When it comes to what happens after death, it is a matter of belief and faith no matter what you believe or don't. As I said to Sebby, one of us is going to get a surprise when it's all over. I'd hate for it to be me.

ETA: Yes, Thurgreed, it ultimately does come down to belief for me as well as for you. With no more evidence than I have, you believe what you believe (or don't believe, which is itself a belief system). But I don't call you moronic for your equally strongly held beliefs nor am I making any statements about where you will go after death. I do wish you had more joy in your life and from reading your posts over the last six months or so, your current belief system isn't doing it for you.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Fugee
Could you both go back and read what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote? I started by saying I don't know how God is going to deal with people who sincerely believe in God but by a different name. Maybe I should have put a semi-colon or period before my next statement that I'm pretty sure that people who reject God are toast to make it clearer that those were two different ideas. Or maybe you had your minds so made up about me that you would have missed that too.

Oh lord. Please forgive me, Fugee. Subsitute "Fugee believes those who don't believe what she believes (i.e., that there is a God) are toast" for "Fugee believes those who don't pray to the God she prays to are toast." Whatever. The point is, you're not pretty sure of anything. Saying you are on nothing but blind faith is ridiculous. Just make it clear that you're speaking from a position of actual ignorance on the subject of God's intentions and acknowledge that your opinions are strengthened only by your unwavering faith and I won't call you on it.

TM

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Fugee
This comes down to an "I believe this and you believe that" matter of faith. But I don't believe nothingness is one of the options -- you either get eternity in Fredland or Nonfredland and the choice is belief or rejection of Fred, not a choice of location.

When it comes to what happens after death, it is a matter of belief and faith no matter what you believe or don't. As I said to Sebby, one of us is going to get a surprise when it's all over. I'd hate for it to be me.

Is Nonfredland unpleasant? Please clarify.

And, if Nonfredland is unpleasant, then I don't buy your "by not sending you to blissful Fredland, Fred is honoring your choice not to believe in Fred" thing. Say it like it is -- if you persist in not believing in Fred, Fred is going to send you to the eternal torment that is Nonfredland. Because it seems like you get sent there whether you say "I don't believe in Fred and I am looking forward to eternal torment! Yaaaay, torment!!" or say "I don't believe in Fred and don't believe there's an afterlife, and I am looking forward to ceasing to exist altogether when I die."

If you were a nicer person, you would want me to be right about after death -- if you are right, I'm suffering eternal torment.

This is kinda prisoner's dilemma-y.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
"I don't believe in Fred and don't believe there's an afterlife, and I am looking forward to ceasing to exist altogether when I die."

except in our hearts, of course. and on that vhs tape that lizard keeps under his pillow.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Fugee
Here's my thinking. I do start with three assumptions: (1) That there actually is one ultimate God who created the universe and all of us and that there is life after death (without that assumption, who cares because we die and that's the end, period, nothing more), (2) This ultimate God gave us free will and will honor our choices, and (3) At some point a person's belief or unbelief can become so entrenched that nothing will change his or her mind (as support for this assumption, I give you the Holocaust "revisionists"). I'll do this with a hypothetical.

Let's say this ultimate God is called Fred and the place of eternal bliss with Fred is Fredland. I don't believe Fred is God. Not only that, I affirmatively reject Fred as God until my dying breath (because I said I don't know how God will deal with people who sincerely believe in God under a different name, the hypothetical is that this rejection is not because I think Ralph, not Fred, is God) . Should Fred force me into Fredland against my will? Let's say Fred is unbelievably more merciful than I could ever imagine and decides to give me one last chance to change my mind and believe in Fred just as I'm at the crossroads between Fredland and Nonfredland and reveals emself to me in all ems power and glory but like a little kid, I've (figuratively) got my eyes squeezed shut and am covering my ears yelling "There's no Fred! There's no Fred!" and continue to reject Fred. If Fred nevertheless pulled me into Fredland dsepite my rejection, isn't em disregarding my free will? In saying that people who reject God are "toast," I'm saying under that hypothetical, I would expect Fred to let me spend eternity in Nonfredland.

A lot of you might have trouble with my second assumption and think that God would only be just and merciful if em takes everyone to Heaven despite the choices they make. That is a matter of faith and belief as much as my belief that God honors our free will.

Your hypothetical leaves out three major variables. First, is NonFredland Hell? If the answer to that is yes, then I reject the notion that a deity that is truly just and merciful would send a non-believer to Hell, which is to say an eternity of torment and anguish.

Second, you fail to account for those people who for cultural or geographic reasons never hear of Fred. Are they to be rejected by a just and merciful Fred simply because they never heard of him?

Finally, I don't think you can ignore those people who believe in Ralph instead of Fred. Or, and here is where I part company with most Fundamentalists, I think it is a greater rejection of Fred to say that you can only know Fred through Ethel, and all who reject Ethel will go to NonFredland, notwithstanding that many believe in Fred, but believe that Ethel was nothing more than a very astute student of Fred.

[Atticus Grinch]

Never thought I'd get tired of a religion discussion.

Does anyone have one of those >$100 fuzzy logic rice cookers? Care to wax rhapsodic about it and justify my impending purchase of one (we eat a fair amount of rice)? The likelihood I'd ever load one up and keep it full of hot, fluffy rice all day long is low. I need it to be fast, and foolproof, and non-stick.

Tell me it's Tivo for rice, and I'm all on that like white on, um, Michael Jackson.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I'm pretty sure about that.

It doesn't count if you're stuffing $20s in their g-strings.