Politics: J'accuse!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Gattigap
George Will calls for Rumsfeld to resign.

Um, I think. Like many Will opinion pieces, one must digest various literary and historical references, then print out the piece and hold it up against the light before discerning his true intentions.

Here, Will is hoping that Rumsfeld will come to this conclusion himself and resign. Either that, or he just wanted an excuse to quote DeGaulle again.

Who needs an excuse?

"How can anyone govern a nation that has two hundred and forty-six different kinds of cheese?"

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sgtclub
http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq.htm

Ah. The old "well look at all the Iraqis we didn't torture or rape" defense.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Ah. The old "well look at all the Iraqis we didn't torture or rape" defense.

People forget that most of the Titanic did not strike the iceberg, and that most of its hull stayed intact.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq.htm

Do I have to do the auto lose and post pictures of happy children in concentration camps on distinguished visitors visiting day? DO I? I mean, for chrissakes, there was a happy children's opera at some concentration camp or other. All the high Nazi officials thought those little children were sooooo cute. AND THEN THEY WERE ALL KILLED.*

And no, I'm not saying that we are just like Nazis or that either Rumsfeld or Bush is Hitler. But for chrissakes, club, none of us is stupid enough to believe that ONLY bad things have happened in Iraq. But when we are discussing violations of the Geneva Convention, posting happy pictures of little children who have probably just gotten to have some yummy chocolate or whatever is just NOT RELEVANT. It's like saying "Well, yes, we did deliberately infect all those people with syphilis and not give them medication that we knew would help them, but look how happy they are in the nice new clothes we gave them! See! We are good! We also gave them all a high school education!** And they loved their Miss Evers!"

Or, "Well, Sophie got to keep one of her kids -- she should be happy and grateful!"

Or, "Hey, maybe as landlord I didn't get rid of the lead paint even though I knew it was there and knew i was supposed to -- but look at how happy your kid looks gnawing on the windowsill! So what if he'll never be able to read past 5th grade!!"

Fucking jackass moron. Please, do, go over to Iraq and show that picture to the women who were raped and the families of the men (and women? not sure) who were murdered. I'm sure they will say that it's all good, and now that they know that certain specific children liked a certain specific US soldier, they don't mind that their family member is dead or that they were violated.

What the FUCK is wrong with you?



*OK, I'm not positive that those exact children all died, but you get the gist.

**Again, have no idea if this is true; Miss Evers Boys is too depressing to watch.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Do I have to do the auto lose and post pictures of happy children in concentration camps on distinguished visitors visiting day? DO I? I mean, for chrissakes, there was a happy children's opera at some concentration camp or other. All the high Nazi officials thought those little children were sooooo cute. AND THEN THEY WERE ALL KILLED.*

You know the rules. Sorry, but you lose.

And no, I'm not saying that we are just like Nazis or that either Rumsfeld or Bush is Hitler.

Nice try, but you can't unring a bell.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You know the rules. Sorry, but you lose.

Nice try, but you can't unring a bell.

Yeah, I know, I shoulda gone back and left in the lead paint and syphilis stuff and taken out the Nazi stuff.

But I'm a proud loser!

Or, I just took out my complete and utter frustration with a partner on little clubby.

[Gattigap]

While we argue about which set of pictures best represents what's going on in Iraq, David Brooks has a good perspective on why we were, in retrospect, blindly idealistic on what would happen when we invaded, and how we have to be realistic about what'll happen when we leave.

[America's midcentury leaders during WWII] took a tragically ironic view of their situation. They understood that we can't defeat ruthless enemies without wielding power. But we can't wield power without sometimes being corrupted by it. Therefore, we can't do good without losing our innocence.

History had assigned them a dirty job: taking morally hazardous action. They did not try to escape, but they did not expect sainthood.

That rugged idealism looks appealing today. We went into Iraq with what, in retrospect, seems like a childish fantasy. We were going to topple Saddam, establish democracy and hand the country back to grateful Iraqis. We expected to be universally admired when it was all over.

We didn't understand the tragic irony that our power is also our weakness. As long as we seemed so mighty, others, even those we were aiming to assist, were bound to revolt. They would do so for their own self-respect. In taking out Saddam, we robbed the Iraqis of the honor of liberating themselves. The fact that they had no means to do so is beside the point.

Now, looking ahead, we face another irony. To earn their own freedom, the Iraqis need a victory. And since it is too late for the Iraqis to have a victory over Saddam, it is imperative that they have a victory over us. If the future textbooks of a free Iraq get written, the toppling of Saddam will be vaguely mentioned in one clause in one sentence. But the heroic Iraqi resistance against the American occupation will be lavishly described, page after page. For us to succeed in Iraq, we have to lose.

That means the good Iraqis, the ones who support democracy, have to have a forum in which they can defy us. If the insurgents are the only anti-Americans, then there will always be a soft spot for them in the hearts of Iraqi patriots.

Gattigap

[Tyrone Slothrop]

David Brooks now sez:
We went into Iraq with what, in retrospect, seems like a childish fantasy.

That translates into Latin as mea culpa.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Ah. The old "well look at all the Iraqis we didn't torture or rape" defense.

No, just trying to give some perspective here. Things are obviously not going anywhere near as well as the administration expected, and we are in serious jeapardy of completely fucking this up, but it is not all bad. There ARE parts of the country that are going fairly well. Granted, not the heart of the country, but there are parts.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Do I have to do the auto lose and post pictures of happy children in concentration camps on distinguished visitors visiting day? DO I? I mean, for chrissakes, there was a happy children's opera at some concentration camp or other. All the high Nazi officials thought those little children were sooooo cute. AND THEN THEY WERE ALL KILLED.*

And no, I'm not saying that we are just like Nazis or that either Rumsfeld or Bush is Hitler. But for chrissakes, club, none of us is stupid enough to believe that ONLY bad things have happened in Iraq. But when we are discussing violations of the Geneva Convention, posting happy pictures of little children who have probably just gotten to have some yummy chocolate or whatever is just NOT RELEVANT. It's like saying "Well, yes, we did deliberately infect all those people with syphilis and not give them medication that we knew would help them, but look how happy they are in the nice new clothes we gave them! See! We are good! We also gave them all a high school education!** And they loved their Miss Evers!"

Or, "Well, Sophie got to keep one of her kids -- she should be happy and grateful!"

Or, "Hey, maybe as landlord I didn't get rid of the lead paint even though I knew it was there and knew i was supposed to -- but look at how happy your kid looks gnawing on the windowsill! So what if he'll never be able to read past 5th grade!!"

Fucking jackass moron. Please, do, go over to Iraq and show that picture to the women who were raped and the families of the men (and women? not sure) who were murdered. I'm sure they will say that it's all good, and now that they know that certain specific children liked a certain specific US soldier, they don't mind that their family member is dead or that they were violated.

What the FUCK is wrong with you?



*OK, I'm not positive that those exact children all died, but you get the gist.

**Again, have no idea if this is true; Miss Evers Boys is too depressing to watch.

If I were AG, I would refuse to ever speak to you again. But as I'm not, I'll chalk it up to running out of batteries for your vibrator.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
No, just trying to give some perspective here. Things are obviously not going anywhere near as well as the administration expected, and we are in serious jeapardy of completely fucking this up, but it is not all bad. There ARE parts of the country that are going fairly well. Granted, not the heart of the country, but there are parts.

Again, what the FUCK is with you.

Hey, Mussolini got the trains running on time! (I have nothing to lose. on a tangent, I liked that movie.)

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
If I were AG, I would refuse to ever speak to you again. But as I'm not, I'll chalk it up to running out of batteries for your vibrator.

I have plenty of batteries. And why would I particularly care if AG speaks to me? I mean, I have nothing against him and in fact think he's nifty, but if he refuses to speak to me because I went off on you for being a moron, that's kind of his issue.

Seriously, I think there is something mentally wrong with you. Have you papered your entire house and office with the happy pictures? What, do you want to hear "ooooh, everything is juuuuust fine. It's great. Don't you worry your pretty little head, clubby, papa W and uncle Rummy will take care of everything"?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Ah. The old "well look at all the Iraqis we didn't torture or rape" defense.

Too harsh. Club's implicit point is a valid one -- although tangential. There are hundreds of thousands of coalition personnel in Iraq -- most of them doing good things with good intentions. We as a nation invaded Iraq with noble intentions.

This effort is too important to allow the whole process to break down into partisan squabbling over abuses and incompetence that have moritified all of us, embarassed our nation, and severely harmed our "war effort."

Remember -- we want Iraq to be a stable, productive partner in the Middle East (democracy would be nice) -- AND we want Bush to lose the election. The first is more important than the second (although the scond may be necessary to achieve the first).

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
This effort is too important to allow the whole process to break down into partisan squabbling over abuses and incompetence that have moritified all of us, embarassed our nation, and severely harmed our "war effort."

Verily, you have transmogrified into the David Broder of this board. Except when you swear.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Too harsh. Club's implicit point is a valid one -- although tangential. There are hundreds of thousands of coalition personnel in Iraq -- most of them doing good things with good intentions. We as a nation invaded Iraq with noble intentions.

This effort is too important to allow the whole process to break down into partisan squabbling over abuses and incompetence that have moritified all of us, embarassed our nation, and severely harmed our "war effort."

Remember -- we want Iraq to be a stable, productive partner in the Middle East (democracy would be nice) -- AND we want Bush to lose the election. The first is more important than the second (although the scond may be necessary to achieve the first).

S_A_M

Oh please. While I agree with what you say, club's post was fucking ridiculous.