Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Who are you again? This is not the FB honey. You've got to do more than come around flashing your tits to get respect here.

Its kind of cute to see club acting all tough, like this grizzled veteran, but he's right that no one respects Not Me.

S_A_M

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
In a perfect world, where no fraud occured, I would agree with you. But there is a degree of fraud in every election in every county in this country - meaning that there is nearly always colorable grounds under which a challenge can be made. It seems to me that this is just the system we have to live with, until both sides are ready to get serious about fixing it.

eta: I wasn't aware of them until you posted that but yes I think they were inappropriate.

Miscounts don't just happen because of fraud. Sometimes, there are normal glitches. I have seen numbers inverted, for instance, so that a precinct reported 315 votes for X instead of 135; I have seen electronic machines double counted, so that 50 + 30 + 20 instead becomes 50 + 50 + 20 or 50 + 50 + 30 + 20; I have seen piles of paper ballots misplaced and left out; I have even seen boxes of ballots accidentally left in the trunk of a car when they were supposed to be delivered somewhere.

In this case, the issues that involved misconduct (e.g., intimidation claims of minority voters) were likely not even going to be part of the recount, and the recounts instead would have focused mostly on the more mundane aspects of counting votes.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
No matter what I post, you are going to continue to live in your pipe dream world.

Big words from someone who's already displayed that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sgtclub
http://www.florida2000election.com/sections/9.htm

For God's Sake club, look at the website (for example, the characterizations in the banner at the top). This is some kind of far right hatchet job.

It even has a colorful, star spangled link at the top of each page, which depicts W and Laura in a heroic pose before a waving flag, and urges the reader to "Join the Fight" to "Support our President". The link goes to the Bush campaign website.

Do you really think that this is a credible, neutral source for any facts?

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Doesn't that give him credence in your circles?

No. Then again, I suspect I am much more familiar with the man and his work than you are. I take you were happy to cite him as "respected" without having any real idea what his jurisprudence consists of?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Do you really think that this is a credible, neutral source for any facts?

And the "facts" he found on that cite have nothing but nothing to do with anything that anyone here was talking about. The point of a recount is to get the tally right, not merely to catch intentional fraud.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Note the restraint I exercised from the mere mention of a Vanity Fair* article as a neutral, unbiased report.

* The magazine which reported on the RNC speeches 3 weeks before they occurred.

VF regularly publishes Hitchens, to whom you cite occasionally.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No. Then again, I suspect I am much more familiar with the man and his work than you are. I take you were happy to cite him as "respected" without having any real idea what his jurisprudence consists of?

I'm not at all familiar with his jurisprudence. I am familiar with some of his law/economics work.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Miscounts don't just happen because of fraud. Sometimes, there are normal glitches. I have seen numbers inverted, for instance, so that a precinct reported 315 votes for X instead of 135; I have seen electronic machines double counted, so that 50 + 30 + 20 instead becomes 50 + 50 + 20 or 50 + 50 + 30 + 20; I have seen piles of paper ballots misplaced and left out; I have even seen boxes of ballots accidentally left in the trunk of a car when they were supposed to be delivered somewhere.

In this case, the issues that involved misconduct (e.g., intimidation claims of minority voters) were likely not even going to be part of the recount, and the recounts instead would have focused mostly on the more mundane aspects of counting votes.

Fraud was the wrong word to use. I should have used "irregularities."

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
For God's Sake club, look at the website (for example, the characterizations in the banner at the top). This is some kind of far right hatchet job.

It even has a colorful, star spangled link at the top of each page, which depicts W and Laura in a heroic pose before a waving flag, and urges the reader to "Join the Fight" to "Support our President". The link goes to the Bush campaign website.

Do you really think that this is a credible, neutral source for any facts?

S_A_M

And what do you think VF/Alterman is? Objective?

That wasn't the point though. I wasn't relying on that cite at all for my position. I just posted it because SS gave me one last shot and it was the first thing with any substance I could find.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
And the "facts" he found on that cite have nothing but nothing to do with anything that anyone here was talking about. The point of a recount is to get the tally right, not merely to catch intentional fraud.

See my response to SAM above.

etc: "below" to "above"

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I just posted it because SS gave me one last shot and it was the first thing with any substance I could find.

I said this was boring. I didn't say we should stop. Or propose anything better.

Anyone want to talk about jobs and minimum wages?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
I said this was boring. I didn't say we should stop. Or propose anything better.

Anyone want to talk about jobs and minimum wages?

Sorry, was that you? My bad.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Sorry, was that you? My bad.

I prompted SS to say he'd stop posting and you'd get one last shot. Then I couldn't leave it alone.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
I said this was boring. I didn't say we should stop. Or propose anything better.

Anyone want to talk about jobs and minimum wages?

In a business class in a very conservative business school, I (as a conservative) once proposed a reason to support minimum wages and the teacher basically agreed it seemed valid but indicated he'd never heard anyone suggest it previously.

Some of the proponents argue that it helps make sure our lowest-skill workers (like teenagers) are treated humanely. I suggested teenagers should be in school, and anyone who can economically earn only less than $5.15 (less in those day) per hour in a free-market system should probably be out obtaining job skills. And the government should help any such adults pick up skills in the morning while they pick up my garbage in the afternoon and evening. High schools students shouldn't be working at all. It went over pretty well.

Bottom line: I favor the minimum wage, but I'd encourage the G to try and ensure others are put in public works/job training trade-off programs to ensure they can get jobs for the new minimum or higher.