A disgusting vat of filth that no self-respecting intelligent person would wade into.

[Gattigap]

Before we leave the topic completely, I thought I'd add another bit on the events surrounding Saddam's execution:

• While privately incensed at the dead-of-night rush to the gallows, the Americans here have been caught in the double bind that has ensnared them over much else about the Maliki government — frustrated at what they call the government’s failure to recognize its destructive behavior, but reluctant to speak out, or sometimes to act, for fear of undermining Mr. Maliki and worsening the situation.
  
  But a narrative assembled from accounts by various American officials, and by Iraqis present at some of the crucial meetings between the two sides, shows that it was the Americans who counseled caution in the way the Iraqis carried out the hanging. The issues uppermost in the Americans' minds, these officials said, were a provision in Iraq's new Constitution that required the three-man presidency council to approve hangings, and a stipulation in a longstanding Iraqi law that no executions can be carried out during the Id al-Adha holiday, which began for Iraqi Sunnis on Saturday and Shiites on Sunday.
  
  A senior Iraqi official said the Americans staked out their ground at a meeting on Thursday, 48 hours after an appeals court had upheld the death sentence passed on Mr. Hussein and two associates. They were convicted in November of crimes against humanity for the persecution of the Shiite townspeople of Dujail, north of Baghdad, in 1982. Mr. Hussein, as president, signed a decree to hang 148 men and teenage boys.
  
  Told that Mr. Maliki wanted to carry out the death sentence on Mr. Hussein almost immediately, and not wait further into the 30-day deadline set by the appeals court, American officers at the Thursday meeting said that they would accept any decision but needed assurance that due process had been followed before relinquishing physical custody of Mr. Hussein.
  
  "The Americans said that we have no issue in handing him over, but we need everything to be in accordance with the law," the Iraqi official said. "We do not want to break the law."
  
  The American pressure sent Mr. Maliki and his aides into a frantic quest for legal workarounds, the Iraqi official said. The Americans told them they needed a decree from President Jalal Talabani, signed jointly by his two vice presidents, upholding the death sentence, and a letter from the chief judge of the Iraqi High Tribunal, the court that tried Mr. Hussein, certifying the verdict. But Mr. Talabani, a Kurd, made it known that he objected to the death penalty on principle.
  
  The Maliki government spent much of Friday working on legal mechanisms to meet the American demands. From Mr. Talabani, they obtained a letter saying that while he would not sign a decree approving the hanging, he had no objections. The Iraqi official said Mr. Talabani first asked the tribunal's judges for an opinion on whether the constitutional requirement for presidential approval applied to a death sentence handed down by the tribunal, a special court operating outside Iraq's main judicial system. The judges said the requirement was void.
  
  Mr. Maliki had one major obstacle: the Hussein-era law proscribing executions during the Id holiday. This remained unresolved until late Friday, the Iraqi official said. He said he attended a late-night dinner at the prime minister's office at which American officers and Mr. Maliki's officials debated the issue.
  
  One participant described the meeting this way: "The Iraqis seemed quite frustrated, saying, ‘Who is going to execute him, anyway, you or us?" The Americans replied by saying that obviously, it was the Iraqis who would carry out the hanging. So the Iraqis said, "This is our problem and we will handle the consequences. If there is any damage done, it is we who will be damaged, not you."
  
  To this, the Iraqis added what has often been their trump card in tricky political situations: they telephoned officials of the marjaiya, the supreme religious body in Iraqi Shiism, composed of ayatollahs in the holy city of Najaf. The ayatollahs approved. Mr. Maliki, at a few minutes before midnight on Friday, then signed a letter to the justice minister, "to carry out the hanging until death."

So the American military was counseling that we follow the rule of law, while the Shiite government was angling to execute him immediately, if not sooner. This, coupled with the weirdness of the execution itself (with apparent participation from a group of street-toughs last seen in the cast of a 1970s B-movie), actually made Saddam look like the serene one in this whole episode. Depressing.

Gattigap

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Occupying Serbia and attempting to impose a new, democratic form of government was one of Bill's bolder moves.

And Bill got lucky. W didn't.

The different outcomes (one mission accomplished, the other just touted as such) had nothing to do with clarity of mission, good planning, or dedication of adequate resources. It was just plain luck.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Gattigap
So the American military was counseling that we follow the rule of law, while the Shiite government was angling to execute him immediately, if not sooner. This, coupled with the weirdness of the execution itself (with apparent participation from a group of street-toughs last seen in the cast of a 1970s B-movie), actually made Saddam look like the serene one in this whole episode. Depressing.

Moktada! Moktada! Moktada!

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
it's sophistry, not brillance, but most dimmer people find sophistry brillant. so, carry on.

Actually, the ticking time bomb hypothetical is sophistry. This analysis is first, a parody of that initial sophistry, and then, a fairly solid explanation of why and how that particular bit of sophistry has become so wide-spread and why it's bullshit nonetheless.

Of course, you like the sophistry because it supports what you believe in. Thus, you have to attack anything that takes a stupid argument and pushes at its margins until its revealed to be a stupid argument. You're right in part, but basically ignoring the forest for the trees. However, you believe what you believe and nothing will change that, so, carry on.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
it's sophistry, not brillance, but most dimmer people find sophistry brillant. so, carry on.

Speaking of which, I've just received the following solicitation from a potential client.

This fellow was obviously seeking the services of that distinguished firm Penske & Chinaski, LLP, so I'll post this here (with links) so you may respond. My bet is its a contingency case, so word to the wise, iykwimaittyd.

"50 % reward on money recovered from microsoft Employment Fraud, stolen movies and stolen concert proceeds.



"This case can also viewed by clicking on: www.AplusSoftware.NET/Theft.HTM or www.TheftCase.Com


"Yes, I am formerly commander and director Rapaport of the CIA. The Central Intelligence Agency fired me so that they could get away with bank frauding me for money I made writing small parts of microsofts product line and for money I made writing various movies, with out being prosecuted. The agency also stole 4-5 congressional Medals Of Honor from me.


"CMH #1 - Colorado cannibal war

CMH #2 - Arizona cannibal war

CMH #3 – Somalia

CMH #4 – The China incident

CMH #5 - All other over sees ops. Iraq, Yugoslavia, Pakistan, Argentina, Fiji, Ect……


"I initiated the Aldridge Ames investigation.

"During part of the time I was assigned to the pentagon, the Central Intelligence Agency would conduct mass burnings of their theft victims and their witnesses in the pentagon’s incinerators in order to avoid prosecution for bank fraud and real estate fraud.

"Former president Bill Clinton initiated some of these burnings.

"At one point I caught Bill Clinton instructing Central Intelligence Agents to through young children, that were still slightly moving, in to incinerators. (Dead families tell no tails).

"In addition, president Bill Clinton bank frauded me for approximately 2.5 million dollars with out successfully having me killed. The money was laundered by Enron and the Swiss banking system.

"During a meeting I had with president Clinton in California’s Yosemite National Forest, president Clinton confessed to me that he transferred 1 trillion us dollars from the national treasury account to Switzerland in his name. At about this time in 1997 I witnessed the treasury account decrease by about 1 trillion dollars. I wonder if this was a true confession."

S_A_M

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
it's sophistry, not brillance, but most dimmer people find sophistry brillant. so, carry on.

I also would have thought you'd appreciate the concession (that state agents don't want to rape their children).

S_A_M

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Speaking of which, I've just received the following solicitation from a potential client.

This fellow was obviously seeking the services of that distinguished firm Penske & Chinaski, LLP, so I'll post this here (with links) so you may respond. My bet is its a contingency case, so word to the wise, iykwimaittyd.

"50 % reward on money recovered from microsoft Employment Fraud, stolen movies and stolen concert proceeds.



"This case can also viewed by clicking on: www.AplusSoftware.NET/Theft.HTM or www.TheftCase.Com


"Yes, I am formerly commander and director Rapaport of the CIA. The Central Intelligence Agency fired me so that they could get away with bank frauding me for money I made writing small parts of microsofts product line and for money I made writing various movies, with out being prosecuted. The agency also stole 4-5 congressional Medals Of Honor from me.


"CMH #1 - Colorado cannibal war

CMH #2 - Arizona cannibal war

CMH #3 – Somalia

CMH #4 – The China incident

CMH #5 - All other over sees ops. Iraq, Yugoslavia, Pakistan, Argentina, Fiji, Ect……


"I initiated the Aldridge Ames investigation.

"During part of the time I was assigned to the pentagon, the Central Intelligence Agency would conduct mass burnings of their theft victims and their witnesses in the pentagon’s incinerators in order to avoid prosecution for bank fraud and real estate fraud.

"Former president Bill Clinton initiated some of these burnings.

"At one point I caught Bill Clinton instructing Central Intelligence Agents to through young children, that were still slightly moving, in to incinerators. (Dead families tell no tails).

"In addition, president Bill Clinton bank frauded me for approximately 2.5 million dollars with out successfully having me killed. The money was laundered by Enron and the Swiss banking system.

"During a meeting I had with president Clinton in California’s Yosemite National Forest, president Clinton confessed to me that he transferred 1 trillion us dollars from the national treasury account to Switzerland in his name. At about this time in 1997 I witnessed the treasury account decrease by about 1 trillion dollars. I wonder if this was a true confession."

S_A_M

Thank you, but I am afraid we will have to pass due to a potential conflict.

Penske and I are about to file a class action lawsuit based upon the 27 people clinton killed to further his own political career. It seems there are issues raised by the instant case that could be taken to say Clinton often killed in furtherence of his official duties as President. If proven, such "justified" killings could be used to show that his earlier killing were somehow in the furtherence of his duties as govenor.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I also would have thought you'd appreciate the concession (that state agents don't want to rape their children).

S_A_M

do you think they all want to torture people?

guys went into whatever branch they are in with the hope that someday a guy who condones torture will be President, then they can fully enjoy their little sickness?

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
it's sophistry, not brillance, but most dimmer people find sophistry brillant. so, carry on.

Thanks for weighing in, Plato.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Occupying Serbia and attempting to impose a new, democratic form of government was one of Bill's bolder moves.

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
And Bill got lucky. W didn't.

The different outcomes (one mission accomplished, the other just touted as such) had nothing to do with clarity of mission, good planning, or dedication of adequate resources. It was just plain luck.

Um... is my memory failing or what?

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
do you think they all want to torture people?

guys went into whatever branch they are in with the hope that someday a guy who condones torture will be President, then they can fully enjoy their little sickness?

I think they want to feel like they are doing all they can in the furtherance of their job (the protection of innocent civilians) and don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for someone that they KNOW is a bad guy.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Adder
I think they want to feel like they are doing all they can in the furtherance of their job (the protection of innocent civilians) and don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for someone that they KNOW is a bad guy.

Oh, i forgot only dumb guys go into the government. Sounds like you believe YOU are more intelligent than the guys we have in some pretty important positions. If you can prove that, I have to admit it would be awfully damning.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Adder
Um... is my memory failing or what?

No, just your sarcasm-meter.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Spanky
Bill O'Reilly has made a point of every time he has been a guest on someone else's show of asking the host point blank if they want the US to succeed in Iraq. If you saw the Letterman clip, he asked that question (And of course Lettermen dodged the question), he asked that on the View, Oprah Winfrey's show, and of course he asks it on his own show every time there is a quest and the subject of Iraq comes up.

I'd dodge the question too, if only because I don't know what the fuck O'Reilly (or you) mean by "succeed in Iraq." Seems to me that Sadaam Hussain is out of power, tried and executed and he no longer has control over weapons of mass destruction. Sounds like that's one definition of "success" given the objectives we were told at the start of this thing.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Oh, i forgot only dumb guys go into the government. Sounds like you believe YOU are more intelligent than the guys we have in some pretty important positions. If you can prove that, I have to admit it would be awfully damning.

And interesting conclusion for you to jump to, although incorrect. I just think that these law enforcement officials are human.