Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[dtb]

Originally posted by baltassoc
But you continue to prove my point: something about Austen makes her fans feel the need to rabidly defend her, which combined with the fact that a large percent of the population finds her mind-numbingly boring, leads to conflict, and this conflict generally runs along gender lines. Conflict leads to hate , and hate leads to evil.

I am only defending her so "rabidly" because the criticism of her is so vehement and vituperous (the world's greatest monster?) -- and this from people who have read one book (if that)!

The things that have been said here are: (1) she's the catalyst for male-bashing (which is wholly untrue -- there are the "scoundrel" characters in her works, but certainly there is no overarching "males suck" theme going on -- without some very tortured interpretations along the lines of Chaucer's secret coded message about menses (?!) -- but no scholar of Austen would take that view), (2) her books are boring and (3) she's "evil" and "a monster".

Well, if you find her works boring, so be it -- I just don't understand how that translates into her being a horrible monster or "evil" as I think you called her.

I certainly can understand that her writings do not appeal to everyone, but I do feel the need to defend someone I consider to be a great author (and, no matter what you think of her, you cannot deny that she was groundbreaking in many ways and her works have withstood the test of time) in the face of rabid, knee-jerk, unthinking criticism, especially from those who have not read her works.

In sum, "I find it boring" is unobjectionable, and I certainly have no quarrel with that; but "she's evil" or "she's a monster" is just plain stoopid.

[dtb]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Why give up turkey when you can have traditional and non-traditional all in one with the Turducken?



"This gourmet delight is a de-boned duck, inserted into a de-boned chicken, inserted into a de-boned turkey. Between the meat layers are layers of absolutely heavenly stuffing. The TURDUCKEN feeds 16-20 people and averages 22lbs."

http://crawfish.cc/turduckens.htm

TM

Oh. My. God.


Where did you find this?


(and more importantly, where can I get one?!?)

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by baltassoc
I think (I was not an English major, so I'm really reaching back here) this is what one calls "hyperbole."

But you continue to prove my point: something about Austen makes her fans feel the need to rabidly defend her, which combined with the fact that a large percent of the population finds her mind-numbingly boring, leads to conflict, and this conflict generally runs along gender lines. Conflict leads to hate , and hate leads to evil.

In contrast, I can completely accept that S_D doesn't like David Foster Wallace. While S_D didn't call DFW "evil" or a"monster," he did compare him to Seinfeld without the punchlines, a pretty rough damnation. I liked him better than David Sedaris, a writer I'd consider in the same vein, but YMMV. But whatever.

Austen fans are like Journey or Rush fans. They're a vehement minority who simply can't fathom how the world misses the inherent beauty of "Jenny was a small town girl... living in a lonely world" or "The words of the prphets are written on the subway walls... concert halls!!!" Brilliant. Simply brilliant. Not since Eddy Cochran summed up the futility of the human condition with the ever resonating "I fought the law... and the law won" had any group really spoken to us like Steve Perry and Geddy Lee.

S(Today's Tom Sawyer, mean mean pride*)D

* Who ever knew pride could be sooo mean???

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by dtb
Oh. My. God.


Where did you find this?


(and more importantly, where can I get one?!?)

Listen, dtb, stop being a hysterical female. Get your nose out of Pride and Prejudice and pay attention to the important posts, namely, the ones about the food -- the preparation of which you will oversee two weeks from Thursday.

There's a linky. Ask your husband for permission to use his credit card, and order a Terducken today!

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by dtb

Well, if you find her works boring, so be it -- I just don't understand how that translates into her being a horrible monster or "evil" as I think you called her.

I certainly can understand that her writings do not appeal to everyone, but I do feel the need to defend someone I consider to be a great author In sum, "I find it boring" is unobjectionable, and I certainly have no quarrel with that; but "she's evil" or "she's a monster" is just plain stoopid.

Hey, Dickens was apparently a great author as well. I'd rather give birth than read his boring shit.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
order a Terducken today!

But the chicken and duck won't have crispy skin, will they? Isn't that from the broiler?

[dtb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
DTB,

You're kidding, right? You did realize my hyperbole was a joke, right? Its early in the morning... sometimes I'm tone deaf to jokes at this hour also.

S(Jane's books are like watching paint dry)D

Of course. I responded with a bit of hyperbole (mixed in with a bit of sarcasm for your enjoyment) of my own. But your comment (hyperbolic though it may have been) is along the lines of the knee-jerk sort that I find so irritating (I know you meant it as a joke).

Jane's books offer a look into the world of women of a certain class in that era, most often (with the exception of one heroine -- Emma) those of that class who are in financial "difficulty". The only way for a woman of that time (and of Jane's social status) to have financial security was to marry (even a woman's dowry didn't belong to her, but to her husband), so marriage was a critical, life-defining decision. The theme of whether to bother to try to marry for love, or to dispense with that notion and marry for security is a subject of both P&P and S&S (not so much the others), although marriage is an element of each book. Marriage was the only "career" a woman had. That a "modern" man might find that uninteresting doesn't really surprise me, I guess, but I don't see how that makes her "evil".

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
But the chicken and duck won't have crispy skin, will they? Isn't that from the broiler?

No. In addition, it is my understanding that rather a lot of fat exudes from the turducken during cooking, and it should be watched carefully to avoid a grease fire.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Hey, Dickens was apparently a great author as well. I'd rather give birth than read his boring shit.

You know, that is EXACTLY the author I was thinking of when constructing one of my rabid defenses of dear Jane -- I must have erased somewhere along the line. I have never been able to get through one Dickens book. I can never make it past the third chapter, and I have tried.

It was the best of times, it was the wor...st ...of.....t...i...m..e...s...(snore).

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Hey, Dickens was apparently a great author as well. I'd rather give birth than read his boring shit.

It chagrins me to say that I'm thinking about revising my (similar) opinion on Dickens. I keep on reading really cool cyber and steam punk novels that always reference back to Dickens, and I'm thinking that I might have been hasty in my judgment and condemnation in high school. This is not to say that I'll be going back and reading Great Expectations or Oliver Twist, but I'm not actively bitching about him as loudly anymore.

I will continue to note that he did get paid by the word and that may have been a factor in my dislike of him back in the day.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by dtb
Of course. I responded with a bit of hyperbole (mixed in with a bit of sarcasm for your enjoyment) of my own. But your comment (hyperbolic though it may have been) is along the lines of the knee-jerk sort that I find so irritating (I know you meant it as a joke).

Jane's books offer a look into the world of women of a certain class in that era, most often (with the exception of one heroine -- Emma) those of that class who are in financial "difficulty". The only way for a woman of that time (and of Jane's social status) to have financial security was to marry (even a woman's dowry didn't belong to her, but to her husband), so marriage was a critical, life-defining decision. The theme of whether to bother to try to marry for love, or to dispense with that notion and marry for security is a subject of both P&P and S&S (not so much the others), although marriage is an element of each book. Marriage was the only "career" a woman had. That a "modern" man might find that uninteresting doesn't really surprise me, I guess, but I don't see how that makes her "evil".

I don't know about that... Baltassoc made a pretty solid argument that Austen is like gangsta rap. Her supporters feel the need to fight to the death for her cause, and that can only beget violence. The logic is unassailable...

Austen ain't evil at all, unless you live in a universe where good = "entertaining." I can undertsnad why you like her. Hell, some folks enjoy a plate of ocra or scrapple. But you aren't going to convince me to revisit any of her work. Its well written, but it does not translate across sexes at all. And as I've said, I disagree that its timeless. Frankly, I find just about everything about 18th through 19th century England, as well as any novels about royals, to be utterly dull. These folks led lives of idle idiocy and self absorbtion. At least Gatsby, Hearst and Carnegie had an aura of danger about them to liven the novels/autobiographies about them. English folk riding around in carriages debating social strictures and agonizing about how to maintain status despite loss of wealth is simply never going to translate to any male. Hell, John Waters couldn't even find any campy humor is such a dehydrated subject.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I raised my hand and said "Has anyone ever considered that there is no secret message here and that these tales are just tales? I mean, we seem to be really torturing the literature here and I just don't see this one." I got a C+ in that course and she never called on me again that semester.

rule 18 of faking your way through college, is that literary analysis is better described as "rote regurgitation."

the first lit class I had, I loved the first book. I knew the prof's theories, but disagreed. on the exam I acknowledged her theories but put out my own. C+.
The next few weeks I was involved in some rather heavy drinking and didn't read the second book. I did have someone's notes and just repeated what she had said- Jesus figures, etc. A-.


Has anyone who has written any short stories or novels ever put in a Jesus figure or other symbolism intentionally? I think the whole field is pretty much B.S.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It chagrins me to say that I'm thinking about revising my (similar) opinion on Dickens...This is not to say that I'll be going back and reading Great Expectations or Oliver Twist, but I'm not actively bitching about him as loudly anymore.

I did just this recently. I read Tale of Two Cities and Great Expectations.

Tale of Two Cities was very difficult to get into. But once I did and got used to his style again, it wasn't so bad. And I really liked Great Expectations. There are about 150 pages in the middle that will put you right to sleep, but I loved the beginning and the end wasn't bad.

But, that's it for this phase of Dickens.

TM

[ThrashersFan]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Hey, Dickens was apparently a great author as well. I'd rather give birth than read his boring shit.

Boring? Perhaps. But who would have guessed that his work would be so adaptable to animation and puppetry* and Fonzie?**

*Flintstone's Christmas Carol, Muppet Christmas Carol, Bugs Bunny Christmas Carol -- just to name a few.

**Am I the only sap who enjoyed "American Christmas Carol" enough to purchase it so that I can watch it any damn time I want?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Did she have any questions for you about Chicken of the Sea or buffalo wings? Has she dropped any kids in the pool?

I suppose it was only a matter of time before the mean-spirited "airhead" jokes started. I'll give you the cheap laughs you seek. Ha, ha, very funny. But I'll have you know that, despite the vacant look in her unblinking eyes, my Tina is no dummy (more cheap laughs for you). Still waters run deep, you know.

What does everybody have against blondes?