Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
[I know everything about your world and your experiences. Since I am black and you are white, things must be easier for you. People must like you more. People must want to give you their business more. I prejudge based on race, too. It's just that I assume that others have it easier than me because of race.]

[Flinty_McFlint]

What with all the anecdotal evidence of parties, strip clubs and the like, I'm getting the distinct impression that I'm at the wrong firm. Or perhaps nobody likes me. Or both. You humans and your incessant classifications.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by mmm3587

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
[I know everything about your world and your experiences. Since I am black and you are white, things must be easier for you. People must like you more. People must want to give you their business more. I prejudge based on race, too. It's just that I assume that others have it easier than me because of race.]

Bullshit. He wasn't complaining about his race. He was rebutting your ridiculous whining about not getting a special mentoring program. Get a fucking clue.

[AngryMulletMan]

Originally posted by mmm3587
Fuck you.

On the inside...I['m] just...the chauvenistic asshole.

But don't try to be all Rosa Parks about your experience in the workplace, unless you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and say that you're getting screwed.

Why does anyone have to be the screwee before getting mad that people are getting screwed?

Sometimes, I wish I had more backbone about things and sometimes I just get tired of having to go to the effort of complaining about them. But other times, when I meet people who respond the way you just did, I want to nail some bastard to the fucking wall.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
When have I ever said that I am hot in a post? I am sure Mister LIbrary of Paigow will come up with ten links in like two seconds, but I dont recall ever saying it. But I guess when one looks like Gareth without the heroin addiction and has trouble nailing anything attractive with or without ten cocktails, one tends to get bitter and obsessive. Good thing one wacks off to one's extensive porno collection or one might go on a nice christmas shooting spree.

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
I was talking to Less, and hope you are too. I'm sure you are hot IRL, but this may be because I'm convinced you look like Maude.

Weird dat. Me too!

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Do you see the women and minorities (i) going out to lunch, dinner and drinks with all the right partners, (ii) being invited to the strip clubs with the clients, (iii) being made partner at the same rate as all those poor white guys who don't get to go to some lip-service retreat? Jesus Christ.

Still haven't been invited to a minority retreat. But I'm sure all 4 of us would have great fun.

TM

just a thought......
On the strip club thing, some of the white partners here tell me there is a fear that later when they hire the shared hooker, there will be the problem of dick size comparison. i know its not rational, but maybe if you start complaining about being poorly hung* you'll get some invites.

*if its not true don't show up for hooker time.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I think you're full of shit.

TM

Better than that you have to reexamine your world view, I guess.

Look, I'm not saying that minorities and women don't still get shafted. They certainly do. All I can do is (a) try to change that, (b) try to show my offense about that, (c) express my ideas about how I think that things should be and (d) not really think about race when I consider people as people, and only think about gender because I want to nail some girl, and not some guy, and because there's comraderie in male friendships that intergender friendships don't have.

That's all I can really do. I think it sucks that people still get shafted. Really, even though you probably think that I am a racist bastard, I do. But deal with it through societal change, and through lawmaking and through progressive opinions. Don't harp about poor little you and how you have it so bad. If anything, harp about how other black guys have it bad, because of education, employment, the criminal justice system, and every other way that black guys get fucked. Even though you may have been profiled, or experienced some racism, when you are suddenly an expert on the woes of a group you are a part of, even though, by all appearances, you are a upper-middle class, happy, intelligent and well-employed guy, it just smacks of sanctimony.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I know everything about your world and your experiences. Since I am black and you are white, things must be easier for you. People must like you more. People must want to give you their business more. I prejudge based on race, too. It's just that I assume that others have it easier than me because of race.

You're an asshole.

But you know what? I DO know more about your world and experiences than you know about mine. I LIVE in your fucking world. Your culture MUST be my culture if I want to succeed at work, you pretentious prick. All things may not be easier for white people, but you smoke crack if you don't think that on the whole (and especially at a large firm in New York) it ain't easier for you than it is for me. All your personal, particular-to-you problems are constants for EVERYONE. Add to that the extra shit I go through and hell yeah, it's tougher. And you'll never fucking acknowledge it because you DON'T WANT TO.

You'll read all these posts as me whining about what I haven't got. Because that's what you want to see. But I was telling you to stop whining because you don't have the same problems. Not a complaint on my part. An instruction to you.

So stick your "TM prejudges me as much as white people prejudge him" in a pipe, stick it in your ass and smoke it. You know. I know. And everyone else on this board knows that it is complete bullshit.

TM

[evenodds]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
(BTW, catch-up today was a bit much - some of you need abridged versions of your posts; and if this new sock is welcome here, maybe it's time to invite back Petunia and Co.)

I am still playing catch-up. The buzz from my wine-drenched lunch has helped.

As the sock enforcer, I can trace no primary to Not Me. This means Not Me gets to stay as Not Me is apparently not a sock.

Just click on ignore and go about your business. Apparently everyone else has.

[AngryMulletMan]

Originally posted by mmm3587
Sanctimonious crap.

Don't harp about poor little you and how you have it so bad. If anything, harp about how other black guys have it bad, because of education, employment, the criminal justice system, and every other way that black guys get fucked.

So which is it, don't get all Rosa Parks unless you have personally been screwed or don't harp about how bad you might personally have been screwed?

In short you just said, I don't want to hear your experience and I don't want to hear your account of anybody else's experience either.

Fucking moron.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by mmm3587
Like others here, I've always expressed skepticism about claims that women make less for some egregious discriminatory reasons. They certainly make less, but it's because of the circumstances. It's because of hours, it's because of education, it's because of choices.

I won't go check now, but someone said that she made less than someone who had been with the employer for a while, while she had lateralled in. HELLO? Do you really not see how that could matter? Once you've been somewhere for ten years, you've demonstrated a devotion to your employer and shown them that you can be trusted. You've been doing your job for a while. You deserve more, and are worth it to your employer.

I don't think you're sexist or misogynist, but I do think you should shut up because you sound stupid. And the "HELLO?" device is a little rude. RT is way sharper than you.

Generally, most pay differential studies cite the different circumstances of women and men in the work force, you are right on that small point (although I dispute your use of the word "choices"). But that doesn't mean that sexism (and I don't mean intentional discrimination) doesn't also result in women getting paid less for comparable jobs in areas that are hard to quantify with, say, billables or professional certification or hours or whatnot, you know, your garden variety liberal arts entry level and work your way up kinds of jobs.

In my pre lawyer life, I got paid about 10% less than my predecessor did when he started in the same job, even though when I started I had more experience, a similar tenure with the company, and was more familiar with our market (very important). I was also better at doing his job when he was still in it, not to mention way better at it after it was mine, and I never fucking caught up to what he made until I happened into a really excellent negotiating position and they wanted me more than I wanted them.

At the time I left, every other woman who was hired for same job in other cities was always hired at less (I'd say a 5-15 percent range existed) than similarly situated men, either at less than male predecessors, or at less than guys who were hired in different cities at around the same time. The VP always justified it somehow -- cost of living differed between the cities (although we did not have a cost of living index whenever someone was trying to negotiate a transfer to a higher cost city), he was hired before the new bonus system, she was hired after a downturn in the industry, he had sales experience, she was only with the company this long and he was there longer, blah blah blah. He was notoriously inconsistent, but the result was painfully consistent.

So once you've had that kind of experience, and tried to fight it, and faced vehement denials of sexism no matter how much objective evidence of disproportionate treatment you presented (and no matter how hard you tried to avoid even using the term sexism), it's kind of hard to read posts like yours without throwing up in one's mouth a little bit, in a what the fuck do you know about it kind of way.

[Aloha Mr. Learned Hand]

A guy does some work for a while and all hell breaks loose...

I only know a few things...

1. I love my kids, and would gladly stay at home with them if I could. I know how much work it is.
2. I love my wife, who stays at home for now. She can go back to work whenever she wants, or not, as far as I am concerned. Since I work such long hours, I'm glad they get to spend a lot of time with one of of us, at least...
3. I respect my coworkers who pull their weight, do the job and treat me decently. That's the criteria. Race, gender, etc. doesn't matter.
4. I like and respect (almost) all the regulars on this site (except that Penske prick), and it pains me a bit to see some of the invective that's been flying the past few hours...

Can't we just agree to disagree, tone it down a bit, let the socks lie and get back to reality TV and porn?

Seriously, it's getting out of hand.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Still haven't been invited to a minority retreat. But I'm sure all 4 of us would have great fun.

TM

It would be more fun if you took the homosexual attorneys with you. Better music, better food . . .

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Aloha Mr. Learned Hand
A guy does some work for a while and all hell breaks loose...

I only know a few things...

1. I love my kids, and would gladly stay at home with them if I could. I know how much work it is.
2. I love my wife, who stays at home for now. She can go back to work whenever she wants, or not, as far as I am concerned. Since I work such long hours, I'm glad they get to spend a lot of time with one of of us, at least...
3. I like and respect (almost) all the regulars on this site (except that Penske prick), and it pains me a bit to see some of the invective that's been flying the past few hours...

Can't we just agree to disagree, tone it down a bit, let the socks lie and get back to reality TV and porn?

Seriously, it's getting out of hand.

You're very sweet, Mr. Hand. A bit of a mother hen, but a real peach. I dig you.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by mmm3587
Better than that you have to reexamine your world view, I guess.

It's more of a "prove it," since I work in New York at a large firm and have visited so many of them and so many friends at other large firms that I can easily say that the lion's share of evidence favors my view and not yours.

Originally posted by mmm3587
Look, I'm not saying that minorities and women don't still get shafted. They certainly do. All I can do is (a) try to change that, (b) try to show my offense about that, (c) express my ideas about how I think that things should be and (d) not really think about race when I consider people as people, and only think about gender because I want to nail some girl, and not some guy, and because there's comraderie in male friendships that intergender friendships don't have.

Good.

Originally posted by mmm3587
That's all I can really do. I think it sucks that people still get shafted. Really, even though you probably think that I am a racist bastard, I do. But deal with it through societal change, and through lawmaking and through progressive opinions. Don't harp about poor little you and how you have it so bad. If anything, harp about how other black guys have it bad, because of education, employment, the criminal justice system, and every other way that black guys get fucked.

I predicted it and here it is. I knew I could count on you. You were the whiny little bitch that started this conversation. "I don't get this. I don't get that. Look at that black guy with the mentor." I told you that you don't NEED a mentor. I told you why. You made up some shit about how all the blacks and women at your firm get treated just as well if not better than you when it comes to socializing with the overwhelming white, male capital partners that your firm is sure to have.

Originally posted by mmm3587
Even though you may have been profiled, or experienced some racism, when you are suddenly an expert on the woes of a group you are a part of, even though, by all appearances, you are a upper-middle class, happy, intelligent and well-employed guy, it just smacks of sanctimony.

You know what, usually when I get into an argument on this board, I think, "If we were in a bar and I was arguing this with Sebby/bilmore/ltl, we would probably get animated but it wouldn't amount to anything." But if you said this to my face I would beat your motherfuckin' ass.

You don't know shit about me other than: Right now I am an attorney at a large firm. So don't act like you know my past. And it doesn't matter how much of an expert I am on those "poor other black folk who don't make six figures," because I am a bigger expert than YOU.

And now I'm leaving because you're about on the same level as Not Me as far as adding anything to a conversation goes.

TM