A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
"Degrees". Remember how I included that word?

Degrees of grey on the scale with Bush at one end and luck at the other?

Am I saying here that the entire set of changes and happenings are directly to the credit of Bush? That there's a direct correlation? That everything good that's happening is his doings alone?

Nope. I'm saying that what he has accomplished has, obviously, directly changed Iraq and Afghanistan, and the tone that's now being set across the ME and Europe and maybe the world seems to be fostering a movement towards things that we like.

I believe that media coverage has a "tone" but that continents do not. I also believe that many of the people frothing at the mouth about how great things are can't distinguish between the two.

For your argument to hold any water, there has to be some causal relationship between our invasions and elections in those countries, and good things happening elsewhere. I'm still waiting for the reporting from Lebanon that suggests this.

Remember a month or so ago, me saying that I was optimistic that Iraq elections would actually be held, successfully, and that that event would presage a sea change throughout places that needed a sea change? Well, I'm a whole lot more optimistic now than I was then. At that time, you indicated that you would like to believe that that would happen, but were still pessimistic. Have you seen any reason to change that? Can you see your way to give Bush ANY of the credit for what's going on? If so, I sure haven't seen it. So, if someone here is holding an absolute position, I doubt it's me.

I understand the notion that a functioning Iraqi democracy would act as an example for the region, putting pressure on Arab regimes to reform. But that's not what's happened -- which is not to say that it can't. We held an election in Iraq. The Kurds and Shiites haven't even formed a government yet. So where's the example of functioning democracy? And while our media plays up the "democracy" angle and plays down the insurgency, to much of the Arab world, the prism through which Iraq is seen is one of imperialism -- Iraqis resisting foreigners.

Also, you guys keep blurring the lines between a Lebanese movement to evict the Syrians, and a Lebanese movement for democracy. The two are different things. In point of fact, the Lebanese political system is rigged to diminish the influence of the largest ethnic group, the Shiites, but since the Shiites are represented by Hezbollah and aligned with Syrian, it's hard to find conservatives acknowledging this awkward fact, let alone complaining about it. Your pro-democracy protesters in Beirut are largely Maronites and Druzes who benefit from an electoral system that gives them disproportionate clout.

P.S.. "Satan"? Choke that shotgun, son.

What's that supposed to mean?