Nutjobs Ranting About Politics.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Was it seared - SEARED! - in Brinkley's memory, too?

(Sorry, but the after-the-fact justifications have seemed so lame as to make me think that someone is thinking "okay, what can we say that fits in with the public evidence?" There were two changes in details about facts, followed by two changes in the Kerry camp story, accompanied with a "oops, sorry." I don't buy that shit from my kids.)

What after-the-fact justifications? He said something a couple times that was wrong, and he's corrected it now. The fact that it was January or February matters not at all. (Actually, Slave accused him of lying to hurt Nixon, but shut up about that when I pointed out that LBJ was the President in December and Nixon was the President later.)

You may not buy that shit from your kids, but you went to a rally tonight for a politician who lied in his autobiography that he flew fighter jets for "several years," when in fact he went AWOL to work on a GOP candidate's campaign. Had Kerry done that in the Navy, you would be all over him like ants at a picnic. So drop the old "double standard" line. You have the double standard of a Warsaw Pact gymnastics judge.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Exactly. However, it is so against the grain of the Historical Kerry that I do not believe that it represents anything more than what Kerry SAYS he will do. He has fudged and obfuscated enough to make me believe that he will do none of it. . . .

You lost me here. I was responding to you, and your post. Have you succumbed to the argument of the lazy, too? (Find someone's meme, and stick to it, applicable or not.)

(A) So, because you do not believe him, he has said nothing? Fiendish! (or, as HC might say: "Well played, Sir!")

(B) In that case I ask again, where was the unseemly and transparent complaint (or any complaint) in my post? I would never steal your meme. [/Note to self, check dictionary.]

(C) I would never suggest that you could say nothing positive to say about our President's tenure. [Wait, unless, maybe I can use the double-secret logic from Point A? Yeah, if I don't believe you, you're not saying it! No, I dare not risk it, my brain might explode. No loss. What did you just say? Don't make me turn this post around.]

S_A_M

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You may not buy that shit from your kids, but you went to a rally tonight for a politician who lied in his autobiography that he flew fighter jets for "several years," when in fact he went AWOL to work on a GOP candidate's campaign. Had Kerry done that in the Navy, you would be all over him like ants at a picnic. So drop the old "double standard" line. You have the double standard of a Warsaw Pact gymnastics judge.

Yes, but Bush didn't run on the premise that he was an honorable or truthful man.

Anyway, Ty, you've got to learn to stop engaging the opposition on the ground of their choosing. It only stirs them up, wastes your time and energy, and doesn't advance the ball. (As if any ball is ever advanced here, but still.) If you can't put a fork in them, just ignore it. Let it roll off your back.

[8 pt font] Besides, man, this ain't our strongest point. [/8 pt font]

S_A_M

[Not Me]

Originally posted by bilmore
and tell us what he will do as president,

In all fairness, I think he has told us what he will do as prez. He is going to nationalize the health care system, raise taxes, and treat terrorists more sensitively.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Yes, but Bush didn't run on the premise that he was an honorable or truthful man.

Kerry didn't run on the premise that he was in Cambodia in December 1968. As I recall, the last time he brought it up was in a year starting with 1.

Anyway, Ty, you've got to learn to stop engaging the opposition on the ground of their choosing. It only stirs them up, wastes your time and energy, and doesn't advance the ball. (As if any ball is ever advanced here, but still.) If you can't put a fork in them, just ignore it. Let it roll off your back.

They're going to keep bringing this smear up, and as between ignoring it and pointing out that it is a desperate, vile smear demonstrating that Bush doesn't have much to run on, I prefer the latter. The truth will set you free.

Besides, man, this ain't our strongest point.

I disagree. I would be happy to remind undecided voters that Kerry volunteered for dangerous duty. The comparison is not flattering for Bush. This stuff is dangerous only if people are misled about the truth. Since the media seems to be hip to the smear tactics, all is not lost.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You may not buy that shit from your kids, but you went to a rally tonight for a politician who lied in his autobiography that he flew fighter jets for "several years," when in fact he went AWOL to work on a GOP candidate's campaign.

Tired shit that is repeated by Franken et al but has no basis in fact. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so.

Let's dispense with a few myths, for starters:

"George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft that he was ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta Dagger. A number of sources have claimed that Bush sought service in the National Guard to avoid being sent to Vietnam, and that the F-102 was a safe choice because it was an obsolete aircraft that would never see any real combat. However, those perceptions turn out to be incorrect, as will be seen shortly."

One of the misconceptions - that the Air Guard was a cush job:

"It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. In fact, Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion."

So he was not a "Draft Dodger" by any rational stretch of the imagination.

"F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of air combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Amazingly, some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets. "

Ground attack. Dangerous.

"But wait", the less-gifted will insist, "Bush only served in Texas!"

Hang on a minute:

"Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, Air National Guard pilots from the 147th FIG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a volunteer program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for three to six months of frontline duty. This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons. Thanks to Palace Alert, the Air Force was able to transfer much-needed National Guard pilots to Vietnam on a voluntary basis while not activating their squadrons.

Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants. "

So Lt. Bush tried to get to Vietnam.

Wow. You'd never know that, listening to the major media.

"The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment. Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots were serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training, and his unit could have been activated for front-line service at any time. Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft that claimed the lives of many of its pilots even on routine missions. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out.
About 800 F102s were built. Over 200 crashed, including a number lost in Vietnam. 70 of their pilots were killed, mostly in training accidents. "

So nearly 1 in 10 F102s killed their pilots.

The fact that the Dems have re-exumed this issue - after having it grind to a halt for them last winter - shows the desperation they must be feeling. The story that Larry Flynt is apparently thinking, again, about publishing something about the fabled Bush Abortion, would be more evidence of this.

BTW - from http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...ry/q0185.shtml

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[lies]

Latest polls show that the Swiftboat Veterans For Truth (or whatever they are called) ads are working in the swing states.

Where do I contribute to their cause? Anyone know? I am going to take the money I was going to paypal to LT and send it to the Swiftboat Vets for Truth. TIA!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Tired shit that is repeated by Franken et al but has no basis in fact. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so.

Let's dispense with a few myths, for starters:

"George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft that he was ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta Dagger. A number of sources have claimed that Bush sought service in the National Guard to avoid being sent to Vietnam, and that the F-102 was a safe choice because it was an obsolete aircraft that would never see any real combat. However, those perceptions turn out to be incorrect, as will be seen shortly."

One of the misconceptions - that the Air Guard was a cush job:

"It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. In fact, Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion."

So he was not a "Draft Dodger" by any rational stretch of the imagination.

"F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of air combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Amazingly, some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets. "

Ground attack. Dangerous.

"But wait", the less-gifted will insist, "Bush only served in Texas!"

Hang on a minute:

"Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, Air National Guard pilots from the 147th FIG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a volunteer program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for three to six months of frontline duty. This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons. Thanks to Palace Alert, the Air Force was able to transfer much-needed National Guard pilots to Vietnam on a voluntary basis while not activating their squadrons.

Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants. "

So Lt. Bush tried to get to Vietnam.

Wow. You'd never know that, listening to the major media.

"The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment. Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots were serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training, and his unit could have been activated for front-line service at any time. Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft that claimed the lives of many of its pilots even on routine missions. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out.
About 800 F102s were built. Over 200 crashed, including a number lost in Vietnam. 70 of their pilots were killed, mostly in training accidents. "

So nearly 1 in 10 F102s killed their pilots.

The fact that the Dems have re-exumed this issue - after having it grind to a halt for them last winter - shows the desperation they must be feeling. The story that Larry Flynt is apparently thinking, again, about publishing something about the fabled Bush Abortion, would be more evidence of this.

BTW - from http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...ry/q0185.shtml

None of this contradicts the respect in which I said that he was lying, which is his statement in his autobiography that he flew for "several years" with his unit instead of 22 months. (A far more substantial error than Kerry's statements about Cambodia.) I was referring to what I said 6 days ago in this post.

I also note that your lengthy defense of him does not dispute that he was essentially AWOL. Honorable discharge or no, he blew off his flight physical, could not longer fly F-102s, did not show up for duty for several months, and spent some of this time on a Republican presidential campaign. Of course, none of this changes the fact that he volunteered for military service, and served his country, but nor does it change the fact that he apparently used connections to end up in a "champagne unit" rather than where he might have been shot at or that others have been put in the brig for less than what he got away with.

Oh, and that self-serving nonsense about Bush trying to serve in Vietnam? See the reporting I quoted. Your story seems to hang on the uncorroborated recollection of a Bush pal, exactly the sort of source you reject when it comes to Kerry.

In the end, I think the Presidential campaign should focus on other things, but let's not pretend that your attacks on Kerry's war service are anything but a smear to distract from those other things.

[Return of the Sarge]

Anybody have any thoughts on the pull out from Europe and Korea? I know Kerry has said this is the wrong time to pull out of Korea because it sends the wrong message, but I think a bigger chess game is being played here. By pulling out, perhaps it forces SK, Russia and China to deal more seriously and directly with the NK issue.

And by pulling out of Europe, it forces the EU to build up troops, thereby increasing the number of troops available for Nato.

[bilmore]

Here's a good account (from Kerry's words and testimony) of his time there:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07292004.html

He was the kind of guy my buds would write back about.

They always wanted to frag these assholes.

Maybe I can't take this VN stuff dispassionately enough. But maybe that simply adds to the accuracy. If we had paid off his two hundred-plus in-country detractors to come out against him, somebody would have found out by now. Hasn't happened. They just don't, and didn't, like the fucker.

Maybe they're all just partisan hacks. Even the committed Dems among them.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Return of the Sarge
Anybody have any thoughts on the pull out from Europe and Korea? I know Kerry has said this is the wrong time to pull out of Korea because it sends the wrong message, but I think a bigger chess game is being played here. By pulling out, perhaps it forces SK, Russia and China to deal more seriously and directly with the NK issue.

And by pulling out of Europe, it forces the EU to build up troops, thereby increasing the number of troops available for Nato.

I was impressed by what Steve Clemons said here and here. He agrees that some reployment is advisable, but disagrees with the way Bush is doing it.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
None of this contradicts the respect in which I said that he was lying, which is his statement in his autobiography that he flew for "several years" with his unit instead of 22 months.

Am I reading this correctly? He said "several years", but it was only 22 months?

Damn him!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Here's a good account (from Kerry's words and testimony) of his time there:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07292004.html

He was the kind of guy my buds would write back about.

They always wanted to frag these assholes.

Maybe I can't take this VN stuff dispassionately enough. But maybe that simply adds to the accuracy. If we had paid off his two hundred-plus in-country detractors to come out against him, somebody would have found out by now. Hasn't happened. They just don't, and didn't, like the fucker.

Maybe they're all just partisan hacks. Even the committed Dems among them.

Doubtless many of them felt betrayed by what Kerry said against the war after he got back. Many of them seem so angry at him that they are now contradicting things have previously said in his defense. Since only one of them was on his boat in VN, it's hard to believe it has to do with knowing him well then.

Please note that you are now linking to a piece that recounts Kerry's service in and near Cambodia in December, 1968, apparently not because you think it's more accurate but because you'll post anything that puts him in a bad light. What was that about not liking the fucker?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Am I reading this correctly? He said "several years", but it was only 22 months?

Damn him!

Tell us the part about not accepting that from your kids again. That was cute.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Return of the Sarge
Anybody have any thoughts on the pull out from Europe and Korea? I know Kerry has said this is the wrong time to pull out of Korea because it sends the wrong message, but I think a bigger chess game is being played here. By pulling out, perhaps it forces SK, Russia and China to deal more seriously and directly with the NK issue.

And by pulling out of Europe, it forces the EU to build up troops, thereby increasing the number of troops available for Nato.

Troops are useless in the present Korean situation, except as hostages for NK to threaten.

As to Europe - this was a long-overdue combination of punitive action (via the loss of the spending) and strategic thinking (there's no reason to keep them there - the SU is gone, no one's running tanks from EG into NATO country, and they are way out of position for any currently conceivable conflict.) We kept them there as a sign of solidarity. They spit on us. The people I know who were there tell me that they were treated like crap by the locals. So, in the face of their disdain, and the strategic pointlessness of their presence, why pay to keep it going?

And, "forces the EU to build up troops"? Ain't gonna happen. Not at all. Think "occupation authorities."