Nutjobs Ranting About Politics.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Maybe I said it unclearly. Back in late 2003, he wrote a significant report that, on the surface, did a lot towards building the impression of lots of weapons and facilities. If you read the report very carefully, you could discern that he was qualifying everything in that regard - but the surface, apparent reading was, SH had weapons. I thought it ironic that, after writing that cheerleader's report for Rice, he complains that Rice was getting, and accepting, bad info. I'm not saying he's not correct now - I'm not thrilled at all with the state of our intelligence, and Rice would seem to have some large responsibility for that - simply that he had a significant hand in exactly what he complains of.

If Condi Rice doesn't have better information than what is released to the public, she needs to go. But you are changing the subject (again). Kay's criticism of Rice was about her performance before the war. So he and she were on the same (damage-control) page after the war. By that point, it was a CYA exercise.

By all accounts, Condi Rice got her job because she's comfortable with Bush, and by all accounts she has been outmanoeuvred at every turn by Cheney and the neo-cons. It's unclear to me how much she can be blamed for this, since her weakness boils down to the problem of working for a president who is unsure of what he is doing and with a vice president who has the opposite problem.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
The only way he had "a significant hand in exactly what he complains of" is if you think an architect and a building inspector have the same job.

Wrong analogy. He's like an architect who designs shit, and then berates the inspector for passing it.

I think you're reading my post as somehow defending Rice. Not so. I think she fucked up. And Key helped!

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Originally posted by bilmore
Wrong analogy. He's like an architect who designs shit, and then berates the inspector for passing it.

I think you're reading my post as somehow defending Rice. Not so. I think she fucked up. And Key helped!

I see that Ty has picked up the baton here, so I won't repeat him. I'll just add that I'm not reading your post as defending Rice (I'd be much more vitriolic if I did). I just don't see how Kay contributed to the prewar discussion at all, so I'm wondering how his criticisms are undermined.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Wrong analogy. He's like an architect who designs shit, and then berates the inspector for passing it.

I think you're reading my post as somehow defending Rice. Not so. I think she fucked up. And Key helped!

Are you siding with the neo-cons (e.g., Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith) who blame their adversaries in the administration for all that has gone wrong, or do you think they also fucked up?

[Say_hello_for_me]

Just wondering (it doesn't personally affect me), but what is the deal with reneging on a pension obligation? Who does that leave on the hook and by how much? I understand about the taxpayer-agency bailout thingy, but do retirees or employees still take a hit while the company otherwise survives? Is some retired guy in Florida gonna get a call saying his pension check ain't coming no more?

If so, that's bad.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Just wondering (it doesn't personally affect me), but what is the deal with reneging on a pension obligation? Who does that leave on the hook and by how much? I understand about the taxpayer-agency bailout thingy, but do retirees or employees still take a hit while the company otherwise survives? Is some retired guy in Florida gonna get a call saying his pension check ain't coming no more?

If so, that's bad.

For private sector defined benefit plans, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation guarantees benefits up to a certain level if the company abandons an underfunded plan. So, people who were low-paid continue getting their full benefits but people whose benefit would be higher than whatever the maximum is will get a lower benefit. If the plan is abandoned but almost completely fully funded (which would be less usual) and the assets are sufficient to pay more than the guaranteed maximum, the people who are entitled to higher benefits under the terms of the plan will get higher benefits.

I'm not sure what the amounts are, exactly, but it's the relatively high-paid people who will get their benefits cut back, not the lower-paid people. So, like, this is an issue for the pilots plans at United or wherever but not really for the unions covering lower-paid people, because all of them fall within the level of benefits that are guaranteed.

The plans pay premiums to the PBGC -- that's how the benefits are funded.

[Not Me]

• DENVER — School officials here said yesterday they plan to replace two Mexican flags removed from a local high school this week after a public outcry about the issue dies down.
  
  But Denver Public Schools spokeswoman Tanya Caughey said school officials planned to rehang the Mexican flags next to the U.S. flags once their safety concerns are eased.
  
  The uproar came after the Rocky Mountain News ran a photograph showing students in a social-studies classroom with the Mexican and U.S. flags displayed vertically and hanging side by side.
  
  Mrs. Caughey said federal law allows U.S. flags to be displayed in public buildings next to foreign flags as long as the Stars and Stripes sits on the right.
  "We're following federal law," she said.
  
  About 84 percent of the high school's enrollment is Hispanic, and 24 percent have limited English proficiency.
  
  The social-studies teacher who hung the Mexican and U.S. flags also teaches English to Spanish-speakers. He told the News that he wanted his students, most of whom were born in Mexico, to feel welcome.

Link

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me

• DENVER — School officials here said yesterday they plan to replace two Mexican flags removed from a local high school this week after a public outcry about the issue dies down.
  
  But Denver Public Schools spokeswoman Tanya Caughey said school officials planned to rehang the Mexican flags next to the U.S. flags once their safety concerns are eased.
  
  The uproar came after the Rocky Mountain News ran a photograph showing students in a social-studies classroom with the Mexican and U.S. flags displayed vertically and hanging side by side.
  
  Mrs. Caughey said federal law allows U.S. flags to be displayed in public buildings next to foreign flags as long as the Stars and Stripes sits on the right.
  "We're following federal law," she said.
  
  About 84 percent of the high school's enrollment is Hispanic, and 24 percent have limited English proficiency.
  
  The social-studies teacher who hung the Mexican and U.S. flags also teaches English to Spanish-speakers. He told the News that he wanted his students, most of whom were born in Mexico, to feel welcome.

Link

Odd that liberals would make a fuss about flying flags in conformity with federal law, but I guess that if that's what we've got to do to be divisive, that's what we liberals'll do.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Maybe I can't take this VN stuff dispassionately enough. But maybe that simply adds to the accuracy. If we had paid off his two hundred-plus in-country detractors to come out against him, somebody would have found out by now. Hasn't happened. They just don't, and didn't, like the fucker.

Maybe they're all just partisan hacks. Even the committed Dems among them.

I'm sure they're mostly not partisan hacks. Like you say, its not hard to believe that they don't and didn't like Kerry. His post-service activities placed him in a reasonably close second tier to Jane Fonda in the eyes of many who served.

As to the ones who have made specific factual statements about Kerry's alleged misrepresentations or misconduct that have been discredited (i.e. just about all of them, except on the Cambodia story) -- I'm perfectly willing to believe that most of them believe what they say. Memories fade after 30 years, and people tend to remember what they want to believe.

That said, it is becoming more and more clear that the ring-leader (and author) Thurlow is an outright liar (or, maybe, just a prtisan hack). When you lie down with dogs, Bilmore . . .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug18.html

"Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire"

This is the guy who said there was no enemy fire during the Rassman affair, and Kerry lied about that to get his Bronze Star. However, Thurlow also won a Bronze Star from that encounter, and Thurlow's citation refers to the boats coming under attack.

S_A_M

Who said Kerry throws like a girl?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Am I reading this correctly? He said "several years", but it was only 22 months?

Damn him!

I have to agree, Ty, this is so minor that I hate to call it a lie.

However, I am a bit unclear on how Kerry's possibly adding flavor to a war story by placing on Christmas Eve rather than on February is much more significant that Bush's incorrect statement.

S_A_M

P.S. I know, I know. Spare me another round of "BUT THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT of his Senate testimony (maybe that was Slave). I doubt it. Even if it was -- look at it this way:

If we can forgive Bush's drugging, drinking, and wastrel ways as a young man, let's forgive Kerry for exaggerations or misstatements made as a young man on one side of an intense battle over the most important domestic and foreign policy issues of the day. You don't have to like him, just don't blow it out of proportion.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Odd that liberals would make a fuss about flying flags in conformity with federal law, but I guess that if that's what we've got to do to be divisive, that's what we liberals'll do.

My guess is that the Mexican flag obscured the mounted plaque displaying the Ten Commandments.

Not expressly mentioned in the article, but no doubt that's what got people upset.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
And bitch, please -- I invented the map of Cambodia.

I will point out that, while lacking a scale, this map seems to show that most of Vietnam is more than 50 miles from Cambodia.
FWIW.

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

All the talk hereabouts on the subject of Kerry and his so-called lying made me worried that my conservative brothers would get so bitter during this election that we wouldn't be able to come together as a nation once Kerry is elected. According to the Presidential Prayer Team, I don't need to worry about this:

• After the election, regardless of the outcome, will you continue to pray for the President?
  
  Yes 97.9%
  
  No 2.1%
  

(I voted no, but only because I haven't been praying for the President much lately -- oops!)



What to know more?

• The goal of The Presidential Prayer Team was to enlist 1% of the American population or 2.8 million people, to pray for the President, both this administration and future administrations. This goal was reached on May 1, 2003, just 600 days after The Presidential Prayer Team was launched. Plans are in the works to establish new goals and objectives of the Prayer Team. It is our sincere belief that this effort could radically alter the future of our country as our President and our nation are prayed for on a daily basis.
  
  ADDITIONAL LEADERS TO PRAY FOR THIS WEEK
  
  Secretary of Education—Rod Paige
  
  Secretary of Health & Human Services—Tommy Thompson
  
  Deputy Secretary of Defense—Paul Wolfowitz
  
  U.S. Trade Representative—Robert Zoellick

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I have to agree, Ty, this is so minor that I hate to call it a lie.

However, I am a bit unclear on how Kerry's possibly adding flavor to a war story by placing on Christmas Eve rather than on February is much more significant that Bush's incorrect statement.

I agree that they are equally significant, which is to say neither should concern us much at all. And they wouldn't except that we were discussing bilmore's refusal to countenance such untruths from his children, and so I was concerned that perhaps he was unaware that he might have to explain to his kids why such behavior was OK coming from the President but not OK from Senator Kerry. At that point, the conversation about parental hypocrisy moved over to the LWK board.