Objectively intelligent.

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

No, "knee on neck," particularly while the suspect is already under control and hasn't resisted arrest, is not an accepted method of taking a person into custody.

The choke out in the Garner case is also not an accepted practice, but I think they had a basis to argue there was a struggle and resistance there, and it occurred alongside other acceptable techniques.

I had a cop draw on me once and then cuff me face down on the ground. It was a fuck up in which a plate from a stolen car had been placed on my rental car, and I was dumb enough to open the door and approach the police car after I was pulled over. (Big no no.)

Nobody choked me (even a suspected white car thief gets the benefit of the doubt), but they did aggressively push me onto the ground and get on top of me. Once your arms are cuffed behind your back, you're subdued. There's no way to do anything. There is no conceivable reason - and every cop alive knows this - to choke a person who is cuffed or otherwise has his arms held behind his back and his face on the ground.

The guy was helpless and choked to death slowly. A good defense lawyer could plead it down to something reckless or heat of passion, but given the cop's experience, training, the fact that other cops had control of the guy's arms and legs and he wasn't resisting, I could see this being a first degree charge. No way that cop is explaining the length of time he sat on Floyd's head while hearing "I can't breathe" and hearing the crowd tell him to get off the guy because he couldn't breathe without realizing he was killing the guy.

If I were his lawyer I'd argue it had to be heat of passion or temporary insanity of a sort because no sane person would openly commit murder on camera the way this cop did.

Eight minutes he had his knee on neck. I know the premeditation has to be before the act but which act? The encounter or the knee on neck?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But moving past that, WHY DO WE LIVE IN A POLICE STATE?

Because a lot of whites are scared of blacks and want the police to protect them, and are willing to excuse almost anything the police do in that name. What's different now is that lots of people are walking around with cameras that they can use to record what happens all the time.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Eight minutes he had his knee on neck. I know the premeditation has to be before the act but which act? The encounter or the knee on neck?

I’d say the continued application of the knee after Floyd’s complaints and the crowd telling the cop he was killing Floyd was a premeditated act. If prosecuting, I’d argue premeditation can occur in the midst of an act. He placed knee on Floyd, learned it was likely or definitely killing Floyd, and kept it there, showing he developed premeditation when he first learned he was stopping Floyd from breathing and reaffirmed it each time he was told to stop but refused.

But this is all academic now. They charged 3rd degree to play it safe. Now the judge just has to throw the fuck away forever, so he can be appropriately beaten to hamburger by prisoners twice a week for the rest of his life. (They put cops in protective wings of jails, but the population still finds a way to beat the piss out of them. And they will beat this guy until he’s had more concussions than a professional wrestler.)

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Sounds like Hertz.

They didn’t cuff my wife. His partner chatted it up with her. They all had a good laugh at me. Then the guy who drew on me told me about how he was killing it flipping homes.

Florida, during the housing bubble.

In fairness, I should have known better. Never get out of the car. Lucky I didn’t get shot.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Because a lot of whites are scared of blacks and want the police to protect them, and are willing to excuse almost anything the police do in that name. What's different now is that lots of people are walking around with cameras that they can use to record what happens all the time.

That explains why the govt collects metadata on you and me and buys military hardware for suburban police forces? That explains why we jail people of all colors for ludicrous periods of time for non-violent crimes? That explains why fed sentences are based not on egregiousness of crime so much as amount of dollars stolen?

I totally agree with what you said, but it’s one piece of a much bigger push toward a police/security state.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

That explains why the govt collects metadata on you and me and buys military hardware for suburban police forces?

I think that's about local cops wanting toys and not being subject to any oversight.

That explains why we jail people of all colors for ludicrous periods of time for non-violent crimes?

I think public support for harsh sentences is driven a lot by race. When a lot of white people envision a criminal in the abstract, they picture a black person.

That explains why fed sentences are based not on egregiousness of crime so much as amount of dollars stolen?

Federal sentencing guidelines aim to take discretion away from judges and to give it to prosecutors, out of a desire to be tough on crime. What you say is part of that.

I totally agree with what you said, but it’s one piece of a much bigger push toward a police/security state.

Sure.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’d say the continued application of the knee after Floyd’s complaints and the crowd telling the cop he was killing Floyd was a premeditated act. If prosecuting, I’d argue premeditation can occur in the midst of an act. He placed knee on Floyd, learned it was likely or definitely killing Floyd, and kept it there, showing he developed premeditation when he first learned he was stopping Floyd from breathing and reaffirmed it each time he was told to stop but refused.

But this is all academic now. They charged 3rd degree to play it safe. Now the judge just has to throw the fuck away forever, so he can be appropriately beaten to hamburger by prisoners twice a week for the rest of his life. (They put cops in protective wings of jails, but the population still finds a way to beat the piss out of them. And they will beat this guy until he’s had more concussions than a professional wrestler.)

They’re going to say he complained about breathing before the knee, thus the knee wasn’t the breathing problem and the cop wasn’t wrong to keep kneeling on him. He will be acquitted and the city will, rightly, explode again. I can’t promise I won’t join them (but kid, but pandemic we’re trying to get my in-laws through).

I’m a shitty protester because it’s mostly standing around and I get bored, but seriously, fuck the police.

Also, 3rd degree depraved indifference is the right charge based on the video. Maybe they can develop evidence for more, but going away for 25 years is also a good start.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Adder

They’re going to say he complained about breathing before the knee, thus the knee wasn’t the breathing problem and the cop wasn’t wrong to keep kneeling on him. He will be acquitted and the city will, rightly, explode again. I can’t promise I won’t join them (but kid, but pandemic we’re trying to get my in-laws through).

I’m a shitty protester because it’s mostly standing around and I get bored, but seriously, fuck the police.

Also, 3rd degree depraved indifference is the right charge based on the video. Maybe they can develop evidence for more, but going away for 25 years is also a good start.

This is scary but possibly right if you read the complaint. This city will really burn then. According to Unicorn Riot twitter, protests are moving toward the 5th Precinct despite the curfew. That is ten blocks from my house, but all quiet here right now. I’m on the board of a domestic violence prevention organization that is directly across the street from the 5th. I biked by today and they had signs up in the shelter windows: “Women and Children Live Here.” “This is a home.” I felt sick until I learned they were evacuated to another location this evening.

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But this is all academic now. They charged 3rd degree to play it safe.

Tell me how they played it safe. Tell me under MN law how he could reasonably be charged with 1st degree murder - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20 - or 2nd degree - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

Tell me how they played it safe. Tell me under MN law how he could reasonably be charged with 1st degree murder - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20 - or 2nd degree - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19.

Laws need to catch up, but shit.

And there is no criminal act in a police watching another police kill someone?

From time to time my state proposes a law making it a crime to not step in if a member of the public sees a child in danger. They are always vaguely worded and stupid as they would require you to break up a parent disciplining their child, which, in a CCW state, that's not a good idea.

But there must be some crime in a cop watching what they watched?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

This is scary but possibly right if you read the complaint. This city will really burn then. According to Unicorn Riot twitter, protests are moving toward the 5th Precinct despite the curfew. That is ten blocks from my house, but all quiet here right now. I’m on the board of a domestic violence prevention organization that is directly across the street from the 5th. I biked by today and they had signs up in the shelter windows: “Women and Children Live Here.” “This is a home.” I felt sick until I learned they were evacuated to another location this evening.

I’ve yet to see damage to a residential property, other than the under construction apartments. At least before last night (haven’t had a chance to go out and look yet), they really did seem to be targeting corporate-owned stores - pharmacies, cell phone store, dollar stores, etc.

Which tells me we’re beyond civil rights protesters and into something more dangerous.

ETA: I’m increasingly believing we are the Reichstag. MPD is allegedly actually run by a 45-loving known racist union boss. They failed to prepare the 3rd precinct and then shot tear gas and “less lethal” rounds into a mostly peaceful crowd the first night, reportedly refusing orders to stand down. Then they’ve largely disappeared while things burned since then. Is it a set up for authoritarism?

Meanwhile, there’s lots of beefy white dudes in huge pickups roaming the city.

Regardless, the governor is certainly correct that there are outside actors taking advantage of the situation to destroy things. There are certainly anarchists and white supremicists (and who knows what else) stirring shit up. It’s scary and smell like smoke.

[Hank Chinaski]

also, doesn't Minnesota have depraved/blackened heart murder? https://time.com/3843388/freddie-gra...-heart-murder/

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Adder

I’ve yet to see damage to a residential property, other than the under construction apartments. At least before last night (haven’t had a chance to go out and look yet), they really did seem to be targeting corporate-owned stores - pharmacies, cell phone store, dollar stores, etc.

Which tells me we’re beyond civil rights protesters and into something more dangerous.

ETA: I’m increasingly believing we are the Reichstag. MPD is allegedly actually run by a 45-loving known racist union boss. They failed to prepare the 3rd precinct and then shot tear gas and “less lethal” rounds into a mostly peaceful crowd the first night, reportedly refusing orders to stand down. Then they’ve largely disappeared while things burned since then. Is it a set up for authoritarism?

Meanwhile, there’s lots of beefy white dudes in huge pickups roaming the city.

Regardless, the governor is certainly correct that there are outside actors taking advantage of the situation to destroy things. There are certainly anarchists and white supremicists (and who knows what else) stirring shit up. It’s scary and smell like smoke.

The fires got to about six blocks from my house. You are right, all commercial. But that does not give as much comfort as you would think when you are live-streaming the riots at 2:30 a.m. and watching them creep south toward your house as the helicopters circle overhead.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

The fires got to about six blocks from my house. You are right, all commercial. But that does not give as much comfort as you would think when you are live-streaming the riots at 2:30 a.m. and watching them creep south toward your house as the helicopters circle overhead.

I tell myself that the Creek is barrier.

ETA: perhaps more literally than I meant. Turns out there was a fire at the Speedway on Cedar & the Parkway, basically two blocks from us.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

Tell me how they played it safe. Tell me under MN law how he could reasonably be charged with 1st degree murder - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20 - or 2nd degree - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19.

Here's part of MN's 1st Degree Murder Statute:

609.185 MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE.

(a) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of murder in the first degree and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life:

(1) causes the death of a human being with premeditation and with intent to effect the death of the person or of another;

As I noted earlier, premeditation occurs when Chauvin realizes he is killing Floyd. Chavin realizes this because he hears Floyd saying he cannot breathe and the crowd around him is telling him he is killing Floyd.

At that point, Chauvin's mind is processing that he is stopping Floyd from breathing, which is killing Floyd (humans w/o oxygen = dead). That happens very early in the process. Despite processing this, and being under no fear of attack from Floyd or the crowd, as he is surrounded by fellow officers, some of whom are holding down Floyd, Chauvin calmly, deliberately continues to choke out Floyd.

As I noted earlier, each time Chauvin hears Floyd or the crowd tell him that he is making it impossible for Floyd to breathe, he is reaffirming an intent to stop Floyd from breathing, which = intent to kill.

Then you come to the end of the video, where Floyd is no longer speaking. At this point, Chauvin knows Floyd has been incapacitated as a result of not breathing. To incapacitate a person by stopping him from breathing is called strangling. And yet Chavin sits on Floyd for at least two minutes while Floyd is silent. All while the crowd is telling him that he has choked Floyd to death.

Of course Chauvin will argue he didn't believe Floyd or the crowd, and that he didn't think he was killing him. But kneeling on a man's neck for eight minutes gives one eight minutes to think about what he's doing. Eight minutes to listen to people telling him to stop.