Politics As Usual

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I read that one this morning.

Hitchy did sound a bit over the top in that one. Methinks he either (1) drank far too much coffee before writing that one, or (2) the mere mention of Reagan makes him reflexively shrink back to his Stalin-admiring years.

Maybe he was just out of smokes. That's when Hitchy gets twitchy.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Whatever he did took a few more years to kick in, but you have to admit that the CCCP ain't there anymore.

Now that you mention it, what exactly did he do? The theory I'm familiar with is that by wasting shitloads of money on Star Wars and other weapons systems, we bankrupted the USSR by forcing them to keep up with the Joneses. I've never been completely sure why Gorby shouldn't get credit for the death of the CCCP, though, for introducing reforms that made it impossible to put the genies of nationalism back in the bottle.

Ignore this.

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by sgtclub
According to the many Reagan bios I've read, including the not so favorable one by Morris, Hitchy gets it a little wrong. The consensus seems to be that statements like these, while clearly untrue, were not intentional lies because Reagan lived in a sort of make believe world where he actually believed the things he was saying were true.

In that case, I'm proud to have been represented by a man who would have stood shoulder to shoulder with the Russians against the influx of little green men. Just more damn illegal aliens taking all the good jobs.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ironweed
Now that you mention it, what exactly did he do? The theory I'm familiar with is that by wasting shitloads of money on Star Wars and other weapons systems, we bankrupted the USSR by forcing them to keep up with the Joneses. I've never been completely sure why Gorby shouldn't get credit for the death of the CCCP, though, by introducing reforms that made it impossible to put the genies of nationalism back in the bottle.

It's not clear to me that we did anything that made much difference in the demise of the Soviet Union, but it is important (hi Iraq!) to pretend that we exercise more control over events in foreign countries than we really do. Arguably our military build-up was forcing them to try to keep up, but this seems like a half-assed way to claim victory, since those arms were sold to us at the time as the necessary response to a Soviet build-up. And if you believe everything Reagan said about the economy, ours would presumably have grown even faster had we cut taxes more instead of spending that money on the military, letting us pull away from the Soviets even sooner.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's not clear to me that we did anything that made much difference in the demise of the Soviet Union, but it is important (hi Iraq!) to pretend that we exercise more control over events in foreign countries than we really do. Arguably our military build-up was forcing them to try to keep up, but this seems like a half-assed way to claim victory, since those arms were sold to us at the time as the necessary response to a Soviet build-up. And if you believe everything Reagan said about the economy, ours would presumably have grown even faster had we cut taxes more instead of spending that money on the military, letting us pull away from the Soviets even sooner.

umm. our economy didn't need to "pull away" from their's. We were always way ahead. or, do you remember bread lines from childhood?

I believe some of the main Soviet leaders (Gorby maybe) said it was the arms race that eventually beat them down, but maybe you can find a blog to say otherwise.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
umm. our economy didn't need to "pull away" from their's. We were always way ahead. or, do you remember bread lines from childhood?

I believe some of the main Soviet leaders (Gorby maybe) said it was the arms race that eventually beat them down, but maybe you can find a blog to say otherwise.

Pull away more, whatever.

Even if I could find a blog to say otherwise, how would that compare to your posting that you recall some main Soviet leader saying otherwise? I mean, I know when I'm up against it.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's not clear to me that we did anything that made much difference in the demise of the Soviet Union,

Once we defeat radical islam, I bet you will say that it would have happened anyway.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's not clear to me that we did anything that made much difference in the demise of the Soviet Union, but it is important (hi Iraq!) to pretend that we exercise more control over events in foreign countries than we really do. Arguably our military build-up was forcing them to try to keep up, but this seems like a half-assed way to claim victory, since those arms were sold to us at the time as the necessary response to a Soviet build-up. And if you believe everything Reagan said about the economy, ours would presumably have grown even faster had we cut taxes more instead of spending that money on the military, letting us pull away from the Soviets even sooner.

Funny you should mention this. I was thinking over the weekend that it's not clear to me that Lincoln actually freed the slaves. Yes, I know he signed the emancipation proclamation, but he never actually went to each and every plantation to throw the shackles off each and every slave, so is it really fair to give him credit?

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I believe some of the main Soviet leaders (Gorby maybe) said it was the arms race that eventually beat them down, but maybe you can find a blog to say otherwise.

A few of the refuseniks said the same thing but that is just me being a timmy.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Funny you should mention this. I was thinking over the weekend that it's not clear to me that Lincoln actually freed the slaves. Yes, I know he signed the emancipation proclamation, but he never actually went to each and every plantation to throw the shackles off each and every slave, so is it really fair to give him credit?

The Reagan was responsible for the fall of the USSR claim is more analogous to saying that European and British cotton mills were responsible for the ending of slavery, or that whatever market they got cotton from while the south was blockaded was responsible for the ending of slavery.

Lincoln is more like Gorbachev in the world of fall of the USSR analogies.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Lincoln is more like Gorbachev in the world of fall of the USSR analogies.

Yes, this is the popular revisionist history.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Pull away more, whatever.

Even if I could find a blog to say otherwise, how would that compare to your posting that you recall some main Soviet leader saying otherwise? I mean, I know when I'm up against it.

I've took all I can stands, and I can't stands no more:

http://www.publicpurpose.com/lib-gorb911225.htm

Gorbachev Speech
Dissolving the Soviet Union (USSR):
Christmas 1991


Dear compatriots, fellow citizens, as a result of the newly formed situation, creation of the Commonwealth of Independent States, I cease my activities in the post of the U.S.S.R. president. I am taking this decision out of considerations based on principle. I have firmly stood for independence, self-rule of nations, for the sovereignty of the republics, but at the same time for preservation of the union state, the unity of the country.

Events went a different way. The policy prevailed of dismembering this country and disuniting the state, with which I cannot agree. And after the Alma-Ata meeting and the decisions taken there, my position on this matter has not changed. Besides, I am convinced that decisions of such scale should have been taken on the basis of a popular expression of will.

Yet, I will continue to do everything in my power so that agreements signed there should lead to real accord in the society, (and) facilitate the escape from the crisis and the reform process. Addressing you for the last time in the capacity of president of the U.S.S.R., I consider it necessary to express my evaluation of the road we have traveled since 1985, especially as there are a lot of contradictory, superficial and subjective judgments on that matter.

Fate had it that when I found myself at the head of the state it was already clear that all was not well in the country. There is plenty of everything: land, oil and gas, other natural riches, and God gave us lots of intelligence and talent, yet we lived much worse than developed countries and keep falling behind them more and more.

The reason could already be seen: The society was suffocating in the vise of the command-bureaucratic system, doomed to serve ideology and bear the terrible burden of the arms race. It had reached the limit of its possibilities. All attempts at partial reform, and there had been many, had suffered defeat, one after another. The country was losing perspective. We could not go on living like that. Everything had to be changed radically.

The process of renovating the country and radical changes in the world turned out to be far more complicated than could be expected. However, what has been done ought to be given its due. This society acquired freedom, liberated itself politically and spiritually, and this is the foremost achievement which we have not yet understood completely, because we have not learned to use freedom.

However, work of historic significance has been accomplished. The totalitarian system which deprived the country of an opportunity to become successful and prosperous long ago has been eliminated. A breakthrough has been achieved on the way to democratic changes. Free elections, freedom of the press, religious freedoms, representative organs of power, a multiparty (system) became a reality; human rights are recognized as the supreme principle.

The movement to a diverse eco nomy has started, equality of all forms of property is becoming established, people who work on the land are coming to life again in the framework of land reform, farmers have appeared, millions of acres of land are being given over to people who live in the countryside and in towns.

Economic freedom of the producer has been legalized, and entrepreneurship, shareholding, privatization are gaining momentum. In turning the economy toward a market, it is important to remember that all this is done for the sake of the individual. At this difficult time, all should be done for his social protection, especially for senior citizens and children.

We live in a new world. The Cold War has ended, the arms race has stopped, as has the insane militarization which mutilated our economy, public psyche and morals. The threat of a world war has been removed. Once again I want to stress that on my part everything was done during the transition period to preserve reliable control of the nuclear weapons.

We opened ourselves to the world, gave up interference into other people's affairs, the use of troops beyond the borders of the country, and trust, solidarity and respect came in response.

The nations and peoples [of this country gained real freedom to choose the way of their self-determination. The search for a democratic reformation of the multinational state brought us to the threshold of concluding a new Union Treaty. All these changes demanded immense strain. They were carried out with sharp struggle, with growing resistance from the old, the obsolete forces.

The old system collapsed before the new one had time to begin working, and the crisis in the society became even more acute.

The August coup brought the general crisis to its ultimate limit. The most damaging thing about this crisis is the breakup of the statehood. And today I am worried by our people's loss of the citizenship of a great country. The consequences may turn out to be very hard for everyone.

I am leaving my post with apprehension, but also with hope, with faith in you, your wisdom and force of spirit. We are the heirs of a great civilization, and its rebirth into a new, modern and dignified life now depends on one and all.

Some mistakes could surely have been avoided, many things could have been done better, but I am convinced that sooner or later our common efforts will bear fruit, our nations will live in a prosperous and democratic society.

I wish all the best to all of you.

Shoot. Read about Iceland. Gorby insisted we stop SDI before he'd consider any arms reduction. RR told him no. The NYT said the talks were a failure. Pretty soon the USSR was gone.

Again, this is what Gorby admitted to his people- as Ty puts it- "this took me 2 minutes on Google"


The society was suffocating in the vise of the command-bureaucratic system, doomed to serve ideology and bear the terrible burden of the arms race.

Originally posted by sgtclub
Funny you should mention this. I was thinking over the weekend that it's not clear to me that Lincoln actually freed the slaves. Yes, I know he signed the emancipation proclamation, but he never actually went to each and every plantation to throw the shackles off each and every slave, so is it really fair to give him credit?

Absolutely not. He's just another in a long line of Republicans claiming credit for what was won with the blood of the working poor who filled the army. I heard he snuck out of the Illinois National Guard, too.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Yes, this is the popular revisionist history.

Uh, because both Lincoln and Gorbachev were INSIDE the country and could DIRECTLY AFFECT the laws etc. etc. of the country. The US applied economic pressure to the USSR, causing them to change their laws. The countries that had been economically intertwined with the South before the Civil War helped determine the outcome of that war by foregoing trade with the South in lieu of actively evading or otherwise dealing with Northern blockades.

I'm not saying that Reagan was at all inconsequential to the fall of the USSR. I'm just saying that your Lincoln analogy is inapposite.