Politics As Usual

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
2) Kepp refusing to split-hairs, but it is apparent that certain forms of interrogation were policy in Afghanistan and were not policy in Iraq.

Was that policy transmitted to the soldiers? What about to the intelligence officers who went from one torture cite in Afghanistan to another in Iraq?

Oh, I know -- they were told of the policy, but in one great big huge whomping coinkydink they all forgot.

3) I still think the word "torture" - despite attempts to classify it in the GC and other treatises - is a subjective one and one that can never have an absolute definition.

That's convenient.

Two questions: Do you think wrapping someone in a sleeping bag and beating him until he dies to be in the grey areas?

How would you have responded if Jessica Lynch had been blindfolded and led naked by a leash through downtown Baghdad? Would you have said "no big deal -- it's like a fraternity prank!" Or would you have decried this as yet another example of Saddam's barbarity?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
I don't want people tortured in my name

And yet you were one of the harshest posters to attack notme when she first showed. Was that petty teasing?

At least we're clear --- the Right Side thinks torture IS justified. There's no hair-splitting about what happened at Abu Ghraib or to Lindh, because you're saying it's okay even if it was the worst thing we imagined. All I wanted to know was whether you'd admit it was policy. Now we know: if it was policy, you're proud of it and your Administration is ashamed.

I know I'm seen as a nuisance sock, but for once I hope you listen to me. You have lost the ability to weight and filter your thoughts and arguments. In this political season it is imperitive you get heavily involved in a campaign. make no bones about it, you involvement has a quid pro quo of a bench seat. given the above you cannot possibly be functioning effectively as a lawyer now, and i know you have mouths to feed.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Not Me

Get real people. The GC has never protected American POWs, not once. And the chances it will ever protect our POWs are slim to none unless we go to war with the UK or one of our other allies. I don't even think the fucking Mexicans would adhere to the GC if we went to war with them.

Well said, cept for that Mexican dig. Our enemies have almost gone to great lenghts to prevent their soldiers from deserting (or sometimes, from even retreating). One of the common ways is to repeatedly tell your soldiers that they will be tortured. Oh, and while zee Ahmarycons are torturing yous, vee veel bee funking your mothers, sisters, daughters and wives as punishment for yous surrendering.

And, as long as its what they need to tell their people, and as long as the threat should be real to try and make sure the Americans don't feel constrained either, they torture our people.

One of my books on the Korean war has a picture of a dead American soldier on the side of a road in N. Korea with his arms bound behind his back. From the early days circa Chosin, there are numerous, numerous stories of systematic torture and execution of POWs.

And then there is the Bataan death march, the Bridge on the River Kwai forced labor in inhumane conditions, the exposure of torture as the Soviet doctrine in the Vietnam war, the rape of female POWs in Iraq I and II, the fucking beheading of Americans on videotape (ok, terrorists aren't signatories), blah blah blah.

I hate to say this, but I think he-whose-name-begins-with-"Hit"-but-whose-name-should-never-be-stated-lest-one-automatically-lose-an-argument, may have been been the only guy who didn't have a policy of torturing Americans. Weird that, because his people tortured and murdered almost everybody else as policy.

Anyway, torture isn't wrong per-se (this is what you were saying, right). Its wrong when its not done for some important governmental purpose, or when its done in contravention of a treaty or what-have-you which you've voluntarily signed.

If we signed a treaty saying torture is wrong per-se, then I think we need to back out of the treaty and push for one that says we won't torture yours so long as you don't torture ours.

Along the lines of all above, if we do ever get in a conventional war with NK again, I'd encourage all of you not to surrender under any circumstance. Better to go down fighting than to end up in a picture with your arms bound and a bullet in your head.

But I think lots of other places will be nice these days if you ever have to surrender.

Hello

[Alex_de_Large]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Cite, please.

Google "school of the americas"

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
the Right

what is most absurd about this board is that, in reality, club may be sorta right, but you, bilmore and I are really center. These guys are such wacked left fielders, that Mickey Mantle LOOKS like he's standing next to johnny Blanchard.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
unless someone objects by 9 E.S.T. I'm counting this as a win.

Its not a win if no one understands WTF you're talking about. Your post is invalid, Hank, under Section 112, second paragraph.

S_A_M

[Say_hello_for_me]

Uhm, clapping and cheering a former First Lady on Constitution Ave. as she accompanies her husband's casket to Capitol Hill.

I wasn't appalled, but I thought it was mildly annoying.

Oh, and I'm not really big on tearing up cept when the topic of my parents comes up, but I teared up when the military band played "Hail to the Chief" at Andrews.

I think a lot of people realized how much we've missed him (at the very least in a comparitive sense) when they played that to greet his body.

Hello

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Its not a win if no one understands WTF you're talking about. Your post is invalid, Hank, under Section 112, second paragraph.

S_A_M

I have to say "no mas"
Our side met on this one. i wanted to argue my post made sense. Slave, however, brought up that if "understandable on initial read to the average joe" was impemented as a requirement, Atticus is completely neutered. i had to take one for the team.

Conf. to SAM
Buy "Ugh." it's about a cave boy who was treated sort of like Cinderella, but then he invents something (bike) and is made King of the world. It was great to help my kids know what my job was- but more i would go to my kids scholl K-3rd grade to show funny patents- Ugh was a great book to read then.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
what is most absurd about this board is that, in reality, club may be sorta right, but you, bilmore and I are really center. These guys are such wacked left fielders, that Mickey Mantle LOOKS like he's standing next to johnny Blanchard.

Funny that. I consider Billmore and myself moderate, so I guess that makes you left wing. Slave is definitely to the right of me.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Funny that. I consider Billmore and myself moderate, so I guess that makes you left wing. Slave is definitely to the right of me.

Suppose it depends on topic- but the basic thought is accurate. We gotta remember these guys live in cities that either
1) actually elect Ted Kennedy to important office, or
2) elect Pelosi, and got an inititive on the ballot to Ban corporate coffee houses. Its like that B&B woman; its not her fault she is vapid; she's only talking to the more vapid (althought there a little kid so it'll change).

I can't imagine your daily life-

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Not proud. Somewhat sickened it was, or seemed at the time, necessary. Should we torture (have Pakistan torture) the no. 3 AQ guy (what's his name, Ali something)? If we can expose some pltos/cells? If you say yes, should we only torture the "top 10."

A legitimate question. My answer would be, I think, that if we're going to use torture, it should only be against folks we have real reasons to think are high level or likely to know about specific plots -- not just every dipshit with an AK who we round up. [Lindh definitely fell into that latter category -- Private Joe Snuffy of the Taliban -- special only because he was American.] That said, the lines become so damn fuzzy that I'd be much more comfortable with a "no torture" rule

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
And making Lindh sit up for 3 days? This is a guy who was in the basement uprising, lived in fucking caves for months, c'mon.

I believe it was four days, buck naked, strapped to a stretcher [I would guess no bathroom breaks either]. You hurt your argument if you minimize or gloss over it , Hank. Say it loud and say it proud, man. Your argument wouldn't change if we'd flayed the skin from his arms, would it? If so, why?

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
When did we do this? Lindh is in jail for being a Tal;iban, not for any dirt he spilled. Shit. We're letting real terrorists go because our system is not structured to deal with the reality. That guy we learned they let go, because to try him we'd have to let him know about all our intelligence sources, so we deport him. We know he was plotting to blow shit up and our criminal justice system points to "send him overseas." He will kill people, understand? We know it, and yet the system you feel we've thrown out dictates we can't practically try him.

Hank -- what AG is talking about was the undisputed fact that it was Lindh's confession, which was obtained during the interrogation being discussed, which was used as the basis to charge and convict him. Walking around Afghanistan in a long robe with a beard, a Koran, and an AK-47 wouldn't have been enough.

The Bush Administration has found the real answer to your question: Don't try the active terrorist in criminal court, ever. Lock them up in cages on some military base until they are old and gray -- or until we win. Give them no lawyer, and no trial, ever. Period. Problems with that? Well, its necessary, see?

Maybe it is, but propose some real life fixes to deal with the real-life issues. There are two sides here, Hank, and you're seem to be every bit as blind as you're accusing AG of being.

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I'm so fucking angry I'm typing slow- spitting the words out- stand down Atticus- you're wrong here.

I don't think its that easy a call, Hank. Talk to the Pope. I'd recycle the old Ben Franklin quote, but then most of us don't even pretend to be principled anymore.

S_A_M

P.S. Oh, and Hank? Screw the Western Conference! Go Pistons!

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Not Me
I would like for Biden to provide me a citation to one example where our POWs were protected by the GC. What war was that? WWII? Vietnam? Korea? Gulf War I? Gulf War II? What a fucking idiot Biden is.

Get real people. The GC has never protected American POWs, not once. And the chances it will ever protect our POWs are slim to none unless we go to war with the UK or one of our other allies. I don't even think the fucking Mexicans would adhere to the GC if we went to war with them.

Again, your mouth outpaces your historical knowledge.

You don't need to ask Biden. The GC came after WWI -- so, no, they did not protect our POWs then. In WWII -- the POWs captured by the Germans and Italians, at least, had access to the ICRC and were generally treated IAW the GC.

Nice or you to criticize AG, but what do you know about it? You spend too much time talking like some hard-case for someone who likes to show animated pictures of your alleged body parts.

S_A_M

efs

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
what is most absurd about this board is that, in reality, club may be sorta right, but you, bilmore and I are really center. These guys are such wacked left fielders, that Mickey Mantle LOOKS like he's standing next to johnny Blanchard.

Look who's talking. You think I'm a leftist.

S_A_M

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Look who's talking. You think I'm a leftist.

S_A_M

You used to be moderate, but you have moved left over the last few months.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Your post is invalid, Hank, under Section 112, second paragraph.

JFC. How many patent attorneys are there on this board?