All Hank, all the time.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
That argument would only work if Sidd had vigorously condemned the invasion of Afghanistan, but not the operations in Gaza Palestine and Lebanon. Then he would clearly be a pro-Central Asian, anti-Arab fanatic.

S_A_M

Those who know me know that I have no truck for those fucking Pashtuns. They are always pissing in the river while our people are bathing downstream.*




*One beer for whoever identifies the movie reference first.

[Sidd Finch]

6000 civilian deaths in Iraq -- in May and June alone.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060718/...iraq_civilians


For club only, I note that this compares with 16,000 murders in the entire US in 2004.



eta: I apologize for citing hearsay.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
6000 civilian deaths in Iraq -- in May and June alone.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060718/...iraq_civilians


For club only, I note that this compares with 16,000 murders in the entire US in 2004.



eta: I apologize for citing hearsay.

If it's hearsay, it's not a cite. Aren't we all clear on that now?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If it's hearsay, it's not a cite. Aren't we all clear on that now?

Apparently not. It's a cite, but depending on the context it may not have much, if any, value.

But I sincerely hope that no one uses the standards that govern on this Board in their practice (unless they are my opposing counsel). The folly comes in discussing one as if it bears on the other. ("When you say "cite, please" you really must mean that you are looking for Ninth Circuit authority because that's what the last judge who talked to me meant.")

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Apparently not. It's a cite, but depending on the context it may not have much, if any, value.

But I sincerely hope that no one uses the standards that govern on this Board in their practice (unless they are my opposing counsel). The folly comes in discussing one as if it bears on the other. ("When you say "cite, please" you really must mean that you are looking for Ninth Circuit authority because that's what the last judge who talked to me meant.")

Meeeow!!!

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Flinty_McFlint
Meeeow!!!

Shouldn't you be helping Wonk lube up?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If it's hearsay, it's not a cite. Aren't we all clear on that now?

P.S.: Nice job focusing on the little joke at the end, thus saving those who have argued that "the death toll in Iraq isn't all that bad" and "there are more murders here" from having to deal with the substance. Sheesh!


I mean, I'm sure we're all better off discussing the various denotations and connotations of the word "cite," but the whole "Iraq war" thing seemed to be another decent topic for this board.

[Sidd Finch]

Jesus.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html


Over 14,000 dead this year. Iraqi government "acknowledges information" suggesting 50,000 dead since the war began 3 years ago.

And I suspect the cycle of mass public slaughter, alternating between Sunni and Shiite, will accelerate.

Is it civil war yet?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
P.S.: Nice job focusing on the little joke at the end, thus saving those who have argued that "the death toll in Iraq isn't all that bad" and "there are more murders here" from having to deal with the substance. Sheesh!


I mean, I'm sure we're all better off discussing the various denotations and connotations of the word "cite," but the whole "Iraq war" thing seemed to be another decent topic for this board.

The death toll in Lebanon in the last few days is not that far north of the number of people killed in Iraq, but people are so freaking inured to the massive clusterfuck that is Iraq that it barely registers.

Cue Hank to say it's comparable to Detroit.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The death toll in Lebanon in the last few days is not that far north of the number of people killed in Iraq, but people are so freaking inured to the massive clusterfuck that is Iraq that it barely registers.

Cue Hank to say it's comparable to Detroit.

I really don't remember saying anything about Detroit death rate- cite please?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
There is an argument that Arab anti-Semitism and anti-Israel feeling is an outlet for frustration with Arab governments, and is encouraged as such by those governments to divert attention from their failings. A truly democratic government might find less need to stir the pot, and its citizens might find more fulfillment in progress than in railing against Israel.

Or, they might not. I don't know the area well enough to have a strong view.

My personal experience (which is not a scientific poll) is that I have never met an Arab that thought Israel had a right to exist. That includes Christian palestians from Israel and Lebanon, and coptic Christians from Egypt. I mention them because before I met them I always assumed Christian Arabs would be more sympathetic to the Israeli cause. I have lived all over the world and worked and socialized with a lot of educated and affluent Arabs and they all have the same opinion. Arabia may not exist as a political reality but it is a reality in most Arabs minds. Arabia runs brom Baghdad to Morrocco and Israel is occupying a center portion of it. As most would say, "the Zionist are occupying the heart of Arabia".

I always thought that Moroccan royalty was somewhat sympathetic towards Israel, but my landlord in Law school was a Morrocan prince, and his whole familly looked forward to the day that Israel dissappeared. Arabs don't seem to agree on much, but that is one thing they all seem to agree on.

I now have many Persian employees, very well educated and seemngly rational, but they all think Israel has no right to exist and needs to go at the earliest possible convenience. So it also seems that the muslims off the world don't agree on much, but they all agree on the Isreali issue.

The Arab people (and Muslims) may be forced to to accept the reality of Israel, and they may even acknowledge it in treaties, but in their hearts they will always want it gone.

If the middle east became truely democratic and responded to its people wishes, I would believe they would all band together and take out Israel. The only thing that stops them from doing that is that they are all autocratic, are divided have other agendas and don't care what their people think.

If people have had a different experience than me, by all means, let me hear about it.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The death toll in Lebanon in the last few days is not that far north of the number of people killed in Iraq, but people are so freaking inured to the massive clusterfuck that is Iraq that it barely registers.

Cue Hank to say it's comparable to Detroit.

I'm not sure comparisons between the numbers of deaths are relevant (nor that yours are accurate, but leave that aside).

When Israel declares victory, celebrates the establishment of democracy in Lebanon, and talks about its mission being accomplished, well, then the comparison to Iraq may make some sense.

But I guess Iraq is no longer important.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
eta: Do you doubt the truth of what Hersh reported?

In its broad strokes, of course not . . .

Our modernized bunker busting missiles are designed to be capable of carrying tactical nuclear warheads.

When you are going after modern, deeply buried, hardened targets, like nuclear testing chambers, etc. -- you'd want to use tac nukes to have any real prospect of success. (If you were intending to wipe out a "program.") This isn't like dropping a few pickles on a reactor.

There are surely such plans in place for Iran, to be used if needed.

P.S. "Hearsay" is a cite/ a cite that is not cited/so then not a cite.

Paradox in haiku.

P.P.S. I _would borrow the lube, but Wonk told me you used it all up during your cite fight with Spanky. Burn!!!

S_A_M

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Yes, but we expect Spanky to start with a semi-reasonable proposition and descend into bullshit. You, my friend, can do better.

Ouch. "Semireasonable position and descend into Bull Shit."

My point was that when you refer to something that comes from an anoymous source you could at least say it was alleged instead of referring to it as fact. Cites are for demonstrating that there is a legitimate source that shows the information cited is factually true, not just showing that someone else has the same unstabstantiated opinion (like Ann Coulter loves to do).

I think Tys point was (and correct me if I am wrong) is that considering the structure and posture of our government most of our reliable information concerning our government has to come from anonymous sources, and as long as the information comes from a reputable journalist, information from anonymous sources (especially information that also has been reported by multiple legitimate journalists) can be assumed to be accurate (unless shown otherwise), and furthermore, such sources can be used in a cite to show the validity of the facts asserted.

Were we really descending into Bull Shit? Isn't that a legitimate dispute?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Spanky
My personal experience (which is not a scientific poll) is that I have never met an Arab that thought Israel had a right to exist.

***

If people have had a different experience than me, by all means, let me hear about it.

As it happens, I have an Arab friend (Caldean Iraqi) who doesn't have a problem with Israel's existence. He's American (and I suppose, American-ized in his worldview), though his family is also involved in trying to help Caldean communities in Iraq.

I acknowledge that this anecdote demonstrates relatively little, though, and I lack your confidence in extrapolating personal experiences into conclusions about what all Arabs think about Israel.