Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Those aren't my people either, though I'm thinking of joining. There's a debate in the land of the NRA right now about whether VA Tech students can be banned from carrying guns to class if they have a conceal-carry permit.

I'm not entirely 100% for or against, but its nice that a state with a Dem governor can still have this kind of debate.

Do you remember college? Anyone who favors letting college students pack heat on campus is absolutely crazy.

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by PuriTY
Do you believe in anything other than you'd like your side to win? Better for your side- sheeesh......

I think the country would be better off all around if Roe were reversed, because I think it would force issues about which people care back to the democratic process, away from the courts, and would get more people involving in politics.

We haven't lost for awhile so its hard for us to say. What has your reaction been to losing lately?

Tonight, an Avila 2004 pinot noir.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I'm reading a bunch of pithy quotes about how overturning Roe would be good for the Democrats. And I'm noting how the pro-choicers have had and will have plenty of opportunities to legislate whatever they want on the issue. Instead, they posture about how they are the REAL majority... while they cry about the dangers of having this up to the majority and out of the hands of the courts.

Maybe your problem is that you think that Democrats and "pro-choicers" all agree about these things. I am pro-choice. But no so pro-choice that I wouldn't prefer to have the question decided by state legislatures instead of the High Nine.

And as for your thing about property rights, I don't know what you are talking about, but those aren't my people.

Most of the conservatives who come here are libertarians, not cultural conservatives.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think the country would be better off all around if Roe were reversed, because I think it would force issues about which people care back to the democratic process, away from the courts, and would get more people involving in politics.

I don't think I can legitimately say "I win" here, but I can legitimately say that you and I are essentially in agreement on this point. If I've never made it clear yet, I'd rather see this ("force issues about which people care back to the democratic process, away from the courts, and would get more people involving in politics"), than see a complacent, fiscally-irresponsible, unaccounable R party in-charge for the next 4, 20 or 100 years. If that means that 50 states enact laws to allow abortion, I'll survive. If it means 49 states enact laws to allow abortion and 1 state enacts laws to ban it, than I'm moving to Indiana.

Have a good weekend Ty and all others!

Hello

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I don't think I can legitimately say "I win" here, but I can legitimately say that you and I are essentially in agreement on this point. If I've never made it clear yet, I'd rather see this ("force issues about which people care back to the democratic process, away from the courts, and would get more people involving in politics"), than see a complacent, fiscally-irresponsible, unaccounable R party in-charge for the next 4, 20 or 100 years. If that means that 50 states enact laws to allow abortion, I'll survive. If it means 49 states enact laws to allow abortion and 1 state enacts laws to ban it, than I'm moving to Indiana.

Have a good weekend Ty and all others!

Hello

I'm sure you'd see many more than one state ban abortion, and many lefties find that prospect untolerable.

Have a good weekend.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Do you remember college? Anyone who favors letting college students pack heat on campus is absolutely crazy.

S_A_M

Except that the kid wast otherwise permitted by the state to carry a concealed gun. So the kid can carry it into a bar, a church, a city hall, a park, his car etc. etc. etc., but not into his classroom.

If I take the"permitted" part and the "a bar, a church, a city hall, a park, his car" part as premises, I don't see the campus thing as distinguishable (though I guess one could always argue hypotheticals).

Hello

[Adder]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I really only post on the PB, and I think almost everyone here is a lawyer (save perhaps Adder) -- but your categories overlap.

S_A_M

Excuse me??

Ad(admitted to practice in more than one jurisdiction... what the hell were they thinking??)der

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Except that the kid wast otherwise permitted by the state to carry a concealed gun. So the kid can carry it into a bar, a church, a city hall, a park, his car etc. etc. etc., but not into his classroom.

If I take the"permitted" part and the "a bar, a church, a city hall, a park, his car" part as premises, I don't see the campus thing as distinguishable (though I guess one could always argue hypotheticals).

Hello

Virginia allows folks to carry concealed in bars!?! Not good.

I'd imagine the individual private business can ban it on premises.

I was going to construct an argument about the dangers of allowing young folks with (almost by definition) not fully mature judgment to carry weapons when surrounded by thousands like them in an atmosphere fraught with alcohol and sexual tension -- but hell, if you can carry in bars why not anywhere else?

Might as well let guns into the bleachers in Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park -- people would be much politer to each other and the players. (Isn't that the argument?)

S_A_M

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Virginia allows folks to carry concealed in bars!?! Not good.

I'd imagine the individual private business can ban it on premises.

I was going to construct an argument about the dangers of allowing young folks with (almost by definition) not fully mature judgment to carry weapons when surrounded by thousands like them in an atmosphere fraught with alcohol and sexual tension -- but hell, if you can carry in bars why not anywhere else?

Might as well let guns into the bleachers in Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park -- people would be much politer to each other and the players. (Isn't that the argument?)

S_A_M

ETA this first: "In 2002, Governor Warner supported permitting concealed handguns in public parks and buildings. In 2003, a bill to permit concealed handguns in bars passed the House of Delegates and was only stopped in the Senate by a tie vote in committee." This is from a google search, but the page had an honest face, so it appears that Virginia doesn't allow guns in bars (unless it allows unpermitted openly-carried guns in bars). I take it back.

There were articles in the Washington Post about some of the gun-rights people exercising their rights to "openly" carry (I think it was even without permit), and I don't recall exactly where they were banned at all.

I know from reading the Post that the issue has arisen in the context of Fairfax Co. (or some Co.'s) parks (ban overruled), and the Dulles Access road (overruled). It arose with respect to libraries in Falls Church?, and the gun people showed what they thought of the city instructing its employees to call the police at the sight of an openly-carried gun... by openly carrying guns into the next city council meeting.

I think I see where you are going though, and I'm not taking a position one way or another on it. If anything, I would take a position in favor of banning anyone who has taken alchohol in the last 24 hours from carrying a weapon.

Anyhoo, its all academic to me. Seems like these people really are pushing the issue into the fringes though.

Oh yeah, and I think you are right about individual private businesses.

In other news, Illinois just turned back all kinds of anti-gun measures, and passed a few that would curtail local jurisdiction on guns.

A few years ago, a guy up on the North Shore shot and wounded or killed a home-invader from Chicago. His town promptly charged him with violating guns laws. If government officials on both sides would just use a little better discretion on these issues, entire states wouldn't get up in arms like this. But where in the world can we trust government officials to use good discretion?

[Gattigap]

... then, by God, stop publishing the numbers.

Really, it's surprising that we had to wait until 2005 to see this happen. In the old days, they'd have been so on top of this stuff that we'd never have seen the 2004 statistics in the first place. With everybody on the road trying to sell Social Security, perhaps they're geting slow.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Gattigap
... then, by God, stop publishing the numbers.

Really, it's surprising that we had to wait until 2005 to see this happen. In the old days, they'd have been so on top of this stuff that we'd never have seen the 2004 statistics in the first place. With everybody on the road trying to sell Social Security, perhaps they're geting slow.

I don't get when you guys say this. No one trusts you guys to deal with terrorism. If the report indicates that terroism is increasing you guys would be less likely to win any office, not more likely.

Can you explain Gatti?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
No one trusts you guys to deal with terrorism.

Maybe they're all looking at the government numbers and thinking the problems getting better.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I don't get when you guys say this. No one trusts you guys to deal with terrorism. If the report indicates that terroism is increasing you guys would be less likely to win any office, not more likely.

Can you explain Gatti?

Interesting point, Hank. Your argument that the Administration is actually choosing to help its opponents is somewhat counterintuitive here, especially given GOP flacks wanting to lynch McCain for suggesting this week that the nuclear option on filibusters might not be in the party's long term interests.

Sadly, your argument also suggests that Secretary Rice, in choosing to terminate the report, is a disloyal, treasonist fuck.


*Sniff* I, for one, shall miss her.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
ETA this first: "In 2002, Governor Warner supported permitting concealed handguns in public parks and buildings. In 2003, a bill to permit concealed handguns in bars passed the House of Delegates and was only stopped in the Senate by a tie vote in committee." This is from a google search, but the page had an honest face, so it appears that Virginia doesn't allow guns in bars (unless it allows unpermitted openly-carried guns in bars). I take it back.

FWIW, every place in Texas that sells alcohol has to have a nice big "no guns" signs prominently displayed. Freaks foreigners out the first time they walk into a 7-11 or bar.

Hospitals and nursing homes also have to have the signs, and I've seen them on the local University of Texas buildings, so I'm guessing that we, not exactly known for gun-control, think that it's ok to prohibit firearms in some locations.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
FWIW, every place in Texas that sells alcohol has to have a nice big "no guns" signs prominently displayed. Freaks foreigners out the first time they walk into a 7-11 or bar.

Hospitals and nursing homes also have to have the signs, and I've seen them on the local University of Texas buildings, so I'm guessing that we, not exactly known for gun-control, think that it's ok to prohibit firearms in some locations.

I'm not from Michigan either, but one of the google dwakadoo chat sites I saw seemed to indicate that permitted guns (or at least some type) are okay in bars in Michigan. FWIW, NTTAWWT (OMTI*).

Anyway, if anyone has any good articles, cites, sources, quotes or arguments that are generally against conceal-carry, I've got some time today to do some reading.

Hello

*Or Maybe There Is