Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This picture is from the second debate. WTF?

Looks like a bullet proof vest to me.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
I appreciate the "first do no harm" approach, and I also recognize the possibility that the new regime in Iraq may not be immune from human rights abuses. Where we differ is that I believe the scale of inhumanity had reached an intolerable level so that these risks outweighed the benefit of continuing for another 15 years as is.

These are difficult questions. In North Korea, I suspect more people are dying, but a war would be much more costly. OTOH, I suspect the future of a united Korea would be much brighter.

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No -- it suggests that we'll get more done if we use tools other than hammers. E.g., modern-day liberal pussies brought you the Peace Corps. You don't have to invade these countries to find ways to help them.

LOL. Modern day liberals did not bring us the Peace Corps. Read your history.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
And the GOP's justification for not funding birth control for the poor is?

The only way you're going to slow/stop abortion is by making birth control cheaper and easier for everyone who might have trouble affording it. You can forget about stopping abortions among the people with money - that ain't going to happen for reasons I articulated yesterday. So tell your GOP pals... get those pills, condums, patches, etc... flowing.

Actually, I articulated those reasons yesterday, so there. You were busy telling me that I was saying something else. But see the conversation above for reasons why abortion becomes scarcer in a post-Roe world. I can't guarantee it, but I stronly suspect that abortion was legal somewhere-or-other even before Roe. Which is fine. I just don't want to live there if I don't have to.

Hello

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
LOL. Modern day liberals did not bring us the Peace Corps. Read your history.

I can never keep up with the way that epithet changes.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I was waiting for that. But it shows why a comparison to 1990 ain't exactly what I'm lookin for sweetie.

Huh? If any comparison you'll get doesn't take into account actual numbers, what good is it?

So, given that abortions will take place no matter whether they're legal or not, you'd rather that there be a substantially increased chance that the woman will die during the procedure.

Compassionate conservatism at work.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by dtb
Huh? If any comparison you'll get doesn't take into account actual numbers, what good is it?

So, given that abortions will take place no matter whether they're legal or not, you'd rather that there be a substantially increased chance that the woman will die during the procedure.

Compassionate conservatism at work.

I started the complaint with reference to our modern Great Society and its resultant ills. I pointed to abortion and noted the activist courts and the silver-spoon cheering section. 1973 ring any bells in this context here?

RT came back with charts showing declines in murders (from the peak years during the crack wars) and in teenage birthrates and abortion rates from something-like 1990. I point out that I'm looking to drive rates back to where they were before the G promised to fix everything. You point out how obviously correct my point is, even with a "Duh"! Now you say my comparison doesn't take into account actual numbers. I simply don't agree that no comparison can be made with pre-1973 numbers, although some of the pre-1973 numbers are estimating illegal abortions.

And yes, if people get illegal abortions, I understand they will be taking risks with their lives. If you and Sebby's purported majority care so much, y'all can fly em to California to have the abortions. I think criminals should be shot.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
2. And I'd add sex education.

Let's teach them to masturbate.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Looks like a bullet proof vest to me.

He heard taxwonk was going to be in the audience.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Actually, I articulated those reasons yesterday, so there. You were busy telling me that I was saying something else. But see the conversation above for reasons why abortion becomes scarcer in a post-Roe world. I can't guarantee it, but I stronly suspect that abortion was legal somewhere-or-other even before Roe. Which is fine. I just don't want to live there if I don't have to.

Hello

Abortion is illegal in Saudi Arabia.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
What an excuse to do nothing or to let sanctions go on for so damn long. Because bad stuff is all over the place and Gee it's so hard to draw lines. You modern day liberals are such pussies.

If you and bilmore* could please start loudly demanding the tripling of our armed forces (with an even larger increase in troops versed in nation building)** to accomodate all of the necessary activities embodied in your position, I'd appreciate it. Some minimal consistency is required, and given our recent history in enlisting the UN and others who can help throw requisite resources at the problem of rebuilding the can after we've kicked it over, it seems to me like this is place you guys need to start.

Explaining how we'll afford to do this by (I would assume) dramatically increasing spending on soldier pay, etc -- because we know that GWB will never, ever institute a draft --- would be a nice complement to the discussion, too.

Because otherwise I think that this moral indignation of calling everyone else pussies (including, BTW, many of your GOP colleagues who are still somewhat dazed after embracing realpolitik for decades) is a bunch of happy horseshit.

Gattigap

* And anyone else on this board currently embracing the neocon wet dream of Righting Wrongs Everywhere

** Because, let's face it, one thing that our Iraq experience has taught us is that if we stiffarm the UN and try to rebuild the place ourselves, it's probably a good tactical move to plan accordingly, don't you think?

[dtb]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I started the complaint with reference to our modern Great Society and its resultant ills. I pointed to abortion and noted the activist courts and the silver-spoon cheering section. 1973 ring any bells in this context here?

RT came back with charts showing declines in murders (from the peak years during the crack wars) and in teenage birthrates and abortion rates from something-like 1990. I point out that I'm looking to drive rates back to where they were before the G promised to fix everything. You point out how obviously correct my point is, even with a "Duh"! Now you say my comparison doesn't take into account actual numbers. I simply don't agree that no comparison can be made with pre-1973 numbers, although some of the pre-1973 numbers are estimating illegal abortions.

And yes, if people get illegal abortions, I understand they will be taking risks with their lives. If you and Sebby's purported majority care so much, y'all can fly em to California to have the abortions. I think criminals should be shot.

The "duh" was because the "skyrocketing" was not (at least not entirely -- and I don't believe you can tell to what extent) due to the illegality of outlawing the procedure, but because the reporting was (more) accurate.

This is all so silly. There's just no having a discussion with someone in your 10% -- those who would outlaw abortion in all circumstances. There's 10% on the other side (no limitations whatsoever), with whom it is equally futile to have a discussion (I don't count myself among that 10%, if that matters) and then there's 80% in the middle, who think abortion should be available, but with varying degrees of restriction. I think everyone is clear where the parties stand -- what do you say we end this pointless conversation?

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I am so misunderstood (and I swear that you are one person here who I will never, ever intentionally insult, and its not because you are a moderator... more because you are like a hero).

Hmph. You're just buttering me up after making me do the wrong research project.

My comparison is with the time before all of the great society programs began. I want to see all of my factors at the 1946 or 1927 levels. Comparing our crime factors to the time of our crack wars just doesn't do it for me. Similarly, comparing our abortion and teenage birth rates to any time after 1973 and the 1960's respectively, just doesn't do it for me. Even a conservative pro-choice estimate of abortions will show (I'm fairly certain I've seen several) that abortions skyrocketed after it was made legal, and teen birth generally skyrocketed after government aid was made an entitlement. I'd go so far as to say that the reasons society shies away from going after dads is because of the no-say-in-abortion decisions thing and (of course) the general availability of government aid. We have 19 year olds living in public housing with 3 kids next door to the public housing apartments where they grew up with 7 more. I don't mean to sound like I'm optimistic that all of this (misallocated incentives) gets fixed. Rather, I think this stuff gets slowly rolled back. And I'm not saying that you have not dealt with sheer human misery in this country, but if you've seen the same things I have, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Hello

Since abortion was illegal in a lot of states, I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were considerably lower. I imagine, also, that medically, abortions are easier to perform now than they were prior to 1973. Advances in modern medicine and all that. I guess we'd have to find a state that had legal abortions prior to 1973 and was tracking numbers. California maybe? Looking at the CDC report that I posted earlier, the big difference is from 1970 (193,491) to 1971 (485,816). From 1972 (586,760) to 1973 (615,831), there wasn't as a dramatic of a change. I wasn't alive then, but I imagine that the abortion debate must have alterted pregnant women to the option. Also, these numbers aren't tracking illegal abortions.

BTW, teen birth rates have steadily been declining since the 1950s. When was government aid made available?

Yes, I agree things are bad out there, and people are miserable. I'm not certain, though, that things are continuing to decline and some of the numbers have suggested a turnaround.

Also, you get a special place in hell for making me go and look at stuff like "Table 1.3—SUMMARY OF RECEIPTS, OUTLAYS, AND SURPLUSES OR DEFICITS(–) IN CURRENT DOLLARS, CONSTANT (FY 2000) DOLLARS, AND AS PERCENTAGES OF GDP: 1940–2009" today. (http://a255.g.akamaitech.net/7/255/2...5/pdf/hist.pdf) Your 1945 number was the wrong one to choose. 41.9 percent, though I guess it was better than the prior two years (43.6 percent). We're at about 20 percent right now, and the data doesn't go further back.

[dtb]

UGH. "Edit" not "Quote". Sorry.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Looks like a bullet proof vest to me.

That's my guess too. I guess he was worried that Kerry would just shoot him.