A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
When we went through a reorganization two years ago, I wrote quite a few memos that said "you are new to this position and may not have a complete understanding of what I do. These are the most important things that you, my new boss, should know about." A colleague who is leaving for greener pastures later on this month is composing a memo that says "these are the issues that are outstanding, my reccomendations on how to handle them, and don't blame me if they're not adequately addressed." My impression of the Clarke memo is that it's a combo of the two versions.

What programs/inititives started by Clinton were stopped by Bush?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What programs/inititives started by Clinton were stopped by Bush?

If you read the book, you'd be able to quit asking stupid questions.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
If you read the book, you'd be able to quit asking stupid questions.

Save us the time--summary please?

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Save us the time--summary please?

Chapter 6 of the 9/11 commission report

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Chapter 6 of the 9/11 commission report

Babe, that's 41 pages long. These are big-picture guys. They don't want the supporting details. Give them some bullet points. Those make it easier to "shoot down" with crap that, if they actually read the background, would clearly not be on point -- but seems to respond to the bullet point.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Babe, that's 41 pages long. These are big-picture guys. They don't want the supporting details. Give them some bullet points. Those are easier to "shoot down" stuff that, if they actually read the background, would clearly not be on point -- but seems to respond to the bullet point.

I started to read it- did you? I read like half and there was no program that was stopped. We tried to bust people- we got lucky sometimes- Clinton was urged to threaten the Taliban if we were attacked- he choose not to- where is the answer to my question?

I mean, if its a dumb question you should be able to answer it, right?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What programs/inititives started by Clinton were stopped by Bush?

Clarke was essentially demoted, and -- as a result -- couldn't get the principals meeting he requested on 1/25 until 9/4.

eta: Not Clarke personally, but his counterterrorism position. The new administration had other priorities, like missile defense.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I started to read it- did you? I read like half and there was no program that was stopped. We tried to bust people- we got lucky sometimes- Clinton was urged to threaten the Taliban if we were attacked- he choose not to- where is the answer to my question?

I mean, if its a dumb question you should be able to answer it, right?

I am happily willing to accept that not enough attention was paid under either administration, and do not single out the Bush admin for not being on the ball. So you have no beef with me. I'm just saying, for someone who supposedly is interested in what is absolutely a very, very complex issue, and who is trained to analyze etc., you don't seem very interested in reading the actual official thingy on it.

Mmmmmmmm, chocolate.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I am happily willing to accept that not enough attention was paid under either administration, and do not single out the Bush admin for not being on the ball. So you have no beef with me. I'm just saying, for someone who supposedly is interested in what is absolutely a very, very complex issue, and who is trained to analyze etc., you don't seem very interested in reading the actual official thingy on it.

The only reason that we're discussing the Clinton record again is that some people, when confronted (again) with incontrovertible evidence that Bush's then-NSA and now-Sec'y of State made (what appears in retrospect to have been) a very bad decision in January 25 to ignore Richard Clarke and his requests for real attention to Al Qaeda, cannot think of a better response than to attack Clinton. It's not like Clinton was perfect. Clarke discusses this in his book. But Bush was worse, in this regard. The Bush folks had other priorities, and failed to take Al Qaeda seriously enough.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Babe, that's 41 pages long. These are big-picture guys.

My big-picture take away from that is--Clinton was doing some stuff. Bush came in, and heard what he was doing, and wanted to make middle east terrorism part of a bigger-picture plan for the area and worked towards that end, but otherwise keep doing the same stuff (as part of a larger program).

Meanwhile al qaeda kept going with the plans it had for the 9-11 stuff, which it started in 1998-99.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Save us the time--summary please?

http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/sho...8207#post58207

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
My big-picture take away from that is--Clinton was doing some stuff. Bush came in, and heard what he was doing, and wanted to make middle east terrorism part of a bigger-picture plan for the area and worked towards that end, but otherwise keep doing the same stuff (as part of a larger program).

Meanwhile al qaeda kept going with the plans it had for the 9-11 stuff, which it started in 1998-99.

That's not right. Understand that counterterrorism was a relatively new mission cutting across the jurisdictions of several federal agencies, and that getting things done required the coordination and cooperation of these agencies, which often had other priorities. Clarke had very few people working for him -- his job was to make counterterrorism happen through these other agencies. Even under Clinton, with his personal involvement in the issue, this sometimes didn't happen. For example, after the Cole bombing, once they'd learned enough to blame Al Qaeda, the counterterrorism people wanted to find a way to put boots on the ground in, e.g., Afghanistan, and the military resisted. The question was divisive enough that it was punted to the next administration. As another example, having the option of launching cruise missiles against Afghanistan meant stationing Navy subs off Pakistan, something the Navy did not want to do. But this was done.

Clarke was trying to continue his efforts under the new folks when he sought the principal's meeting. In denying that meeting, and downgrading Clarke's status, Rice prevented Clarke from marshalling the resources of other agencies as he had in the Clinton adminstration, and ensured that less would happen. E.g., (as I recall) Clarke was trying to get Predator drones flying over Afghanistan, but could not resolve a squabble over who would pay for this. No one wanted it to come out their budget. As a result, nothing happened with this proposal between 1/01 and 9/01.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The question was divisive enough that it was punted to the next administration.

I stand corrected.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
That's not right. Understand that counterterrorism was a relatively new mission cutting across the jurisdictions of several federal agencies, and that getting things done required the coordination and cooperation of these agencies, which often had other priorities. Clarke had very few people working for him -- his job was to make counterterrorism happen through these other agencies. Even under Clinton, with his personal involvement in the issue, this sometimes didn't happen. For example, after the Cole bombing, once they'd learned enough to blame Al Qaeda, the counterterrorism people wanted to find a way to put boots on the ground in, e.g., Afghanistan, and the military resisted. The question was divisive enough that it was punted to the next administration. As another example, having the option of launching cruise missiles against Afghanistan meant stationing Navy subs off Pakistan, something the Navy did not want to do. But this was done.

Clarke was trying to continue his efforts under the new folks when he sought the principal's meeting. In denying that meeting, and downgrading Clarke's status, Rice prevented Clarke from marshalling the resources of other agencies as he had in the Clinton adminstration, and ensured that less would happen. E.g., (as I recall) Clarke was trying to get Predator drones flying over Afghanistan, but could not resolve a squabble over who would pay for this. No one wanted it to come out their budget. As a result, nothing happened with this proposal between 1/01 and 9/01.

What good would Predator flyovers do? See, this is what I'm not getting- he wanted meetings- what would have come from these meetings?

There had been several attacks under Clinton. We essentially failed to respond in any meaningful, or at least arrarent way against the Taliban even though the last 3 were planned from Afghansitan. Okay- there were reasons etc why Clinton did nothing apparent.

but you say Clinton did lots and Bush shut off the "lots" and I'm saying if you could prove that then you have something. Then you say Clarke got this Predator bug in his head and couldn't get no go ahead- and he couldn't get any meetings- but if he was already doing things wouldn't the absence of a meeting mean he could keep going ahead with the very effective Clinton gameplan?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Bad news, RT -- apparently DeLay is quite funny.