Get Me Out Of This Shit Career

[Fugee]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The primary reason that most of us are stuck and spinning our wheels trying to make the leap of of law is that no other field appears to pay people with our background as well as law and experience in law is only attractive to other legal employers. So we're stuck with the golden handcuffs...
...

The trick for most of us is to leave law and make reasonably close to what you're making in law, or at least have the opportunity to make reaonably close to what you make in law within a reasonable period of time.

I want to change one part of the equation. I have my school loans paid off, my mortgage is not astronomical and although it would be nice to make law money, I'd rather have more free time than more money.

So I'm looking for something that will pay enough to be comfortable but not require more than 30 hours a week on average (some periods of long hours would be OK -- especially in the winter when there is nothing else to do -- if there were offsetting periods of few hours. 40 hours average would be doable but not optimal.

I'm thinking of mediation but getting enough business to be profitable would take a lot of marketing. Does anyone know someone who has a mediation business?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Fugee
I want to change one part of the equation. I have my school loans paid off, my mortgage is not astronomical and although it would be nice to make law money, I'd rather have more free time than more money.

So I'm looking for something that will pay enough to be comfortable but not require more than 30 hours a week on average (some periods of long hours would be OK -- especially in the winter when there is nothing else to do -- if there were offsetting periods of few hours. 40 hours average would be doable but not optimal.

I'm thinking of mediation but getting enough business to be profitable would take a lot of marketing. Does anyone know someone who has a mediation business?

Mediation is a tricky business. Some people make solid money at it (ex-judges, magistrates). Usually you have to have been on the bench or an older established lawyer to get a reputation that attracts parties to want your services. I don't think its exactly the field for a young lawyer, since it usually requires a lot of instinct for complex settlements and the ability to lean on counsel (knowing counsel before you personally helps a lot). However, if you're good at settling cases and tenderizing unrealistic clients, it might be up your alley. Just understand, it is not massive money and the growth is not phenomonal since you usually get paid hourly or a flat fee.

My suggestion to you if you really want to pare down hours is to get into a field that does not bill by the hour. The only way to lower your work week is to get away from the billable hour and into a situation where you either get paid by what you kill (PI) or you knock out easy projects for a flat fee (debtor bankruptcies). And, of course, sales... If you can do mediation, you can do sales.

[Fugee]

Are you and I the only ones who want to do something else? Where is everyone else?

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I don't think its exactly the field for a young lawyer, since it usually requires a lot of instinct for complex settlements and the ability to lean on counsel (knowing counsel before you personally helps a lot).

Those two things shouldn't be tough for me. I love/live to lean on counsel.

Just understand, it is not massive money and the growth is not phenomonal since you usually get paid hourly or a flat fee.

That's why I said I wanted to change the "make big money" part of the equation. I don't need to make massive money, just live comfortably and be able to take a trip now and then. But most importantly, I want to have more free time and more flexibility in setting my schedule. I never wanted to be self-employed so it scares me to feel like I want to do this.

[Alex_de_Large]

Originally posted by leagleaze
You know, you might actually like my line of work. I'd be happy to talk with you about it. The salary isn't bad, it just isn't big firm, and I get to lean on people all the time. And heck, there will be a job soon

Sounds intriguing, leagl. Then again, many things do when compared to the life of an average lawyer. I would love to hear about it.

AdL

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by Alex_de_Large
Sounds intriguing, leagl. Then again, many things do when compared to the life of an average lawyer. I would love to hear about it.

AdL

Me too.

There is a some outfit that has been advertising on the radio for close to a two years now. They claim to have this incredible marketing program that they sell to corporations and that you can make 6 figures if you sign up. They also so that they are not a MLM program. Has anyone heard these ads?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Alex_de_Large
Sounds intriguing, leagl. Then again, many things do when compared to the life of an average lawyer. I would love to hear about it.

AdL

AdL,

You know the fucking gig to big bucks. Plaintiff's personal injury is the way to go. Once you're in the referral system, it becomes a business rather than a profession. You litigate what's worth it and take a piece of everything else that comes by as you pass it along to the next guy.

Mediation is a $100,000-125,000K gig tops in the Philly Market, and that's with years of experience. Fugee, you can do the math to adjust the #s to your locale.

The way I see it, I got two choices going forward, which are the same two most of us have - (a) get out and restart; or (b) shift into PI full time and start hustling.

Here is wisdom, and let no fool dictate otherwise to you... There is no future in standard big firm litigation anymore. Its a fool's bargain with no job security unless you've got locked up business that won't leave no matter how bad the last mistake. The shark tank is getting worse every day and there's nearly nothing to feed on, and now that the economy is picking up, the market will have less work and be flooded with all the idiots who went to law school during the recession. Call me chicken little all you like, but if you want to make $500k, which is all that could possibly justify sticking with a career this corrisive to QOL, you'd better get into serious fucking PI and start hustling or get a side business.

S(whew... that was some stream of consciousness shit there)D

[evenodds]

I highly recommend working in non-profits and for foundations. They love to hire lawyers as executive directors or project managers in things that have nothing to do with the law.

You can expect to make anything from $70k-$140k based on the size of the foundation and your degree of responsibility. The jobs are all 40 hr per week gigs (or less, frankly), but you do have to attend cocktail parties and receptions. Sebby, you could drink for a living!

Sure, it's not BigLaw money, but it's not BigLaw work. You can use all your extra time to write your novel, start your envelope stuffing business, build your pharm sales portfolio, hang with your kids, or practice law, since there are rarely conflicts or restrictions.

Even(and you will have the best rolodex in town)Odds

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by evenodds
I highly recommend working in non-profits and for foundations. They love to hire lawyers as executive directors or project managers in things that have nothing to do with the law.

You can expect to make anything from $70k-$140k based on the size of the foundation and your degree of responsibility. The jobs are all 40 hr per week gigs (or less, frankly), but you do have to attend cocktail parties and receptions. Sebby, you could drink for a living!

Sure, it's not BigLaw money, but it's not BigLaw work. You can use all your extra time to write your novel, start your envelope stuffing business, build your pharm sales portfolio, hang with your kids, or practice law, since there are rarely conflicts or restrictions.

Even(and you will have the best rolodex in town)Odds

E/O,

In Philly, $140K is about as high as an associate will ever make in BigLaw. This is a very good suggestion and one I hadn't considered yet. Thanks for giving me some new research.

Leagl - You hit the nail on the head. One must take a pay cut to leave law. However, PI is in a sense leaving law. Corporate lawyers and litigators identify themselves with their careers - they are professionals. PI lawyers tend to be businessmen. They don't take on challenges for intellectual stimulation. They choose and litigate cases based on how much the case is certain to generate. When I said smart PI lawyers send out a lot of cases I meant smart PI lawyers send out cases they know would be cost prohibitive to litigate. If you're a solo, you should not take on a $25 mil dollar wrongful death case involving mountains of experts. You should farm that out to a big time PI shop that can afford the experts needed to win and take a fat referral fee after settlement or verdict. The difference between plaintiff's work and BigLaw work is that in plaintiff's work you view each case as nothing more than its economic value and you seek to move it quickly to get the cash in... the diamterical opposite of billable hour firms.

No matter what business you're in, if you intend to make money, you must think of yourself not as some paper-Chasish storied professional, but as a businessman. Look at the bottom line first and foremost. This is why I have enjoyed tremendously every piece of plaintiff's work I've ever had. Just go get the money.

Well, the Mrs. has set a deadline for my decision on my career, and its coming quickly, so I guess in the next two months you'll get to see where this whining windbag goes... I'll be your guinea pig.

SD

[evenodds]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
However, PI is in a sense leaving law. Corporate lawyers and litigators identify themselves with their careers - they are professionals. PI lawyers tend to be businessmen. They don't take on challenges for intellectual stimulation. They choose and litigate cases based on how much the case is certain to generate.

Any successful lawyer in any practice at any firm chooses cases based on how much the case will generate. The difficulty in BigLaw is the cognitive dissonance between what you do as an associate and the business decisions your partners make that affect you.

If you want more control, you can be a solo corporate or hired gun litigator. You don't have to make the jump from BigLaw to PI, though, some of the most successful lawyers I know have done just that. Among my friends are a half-dozen former BigLaw associates who work in 1-6 lawyer practices, completely in control of their own destinies. They practice health, sports & entertainment, corporate, estates & trusts, governmental affairs (lobbying), and PI, or some combination thereof. My other lawyer friends are partners at BigTex or large local firms. The more control they have over the cases they take and the work they do, the happier they are.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield


Well, the Mrs. has set a deadline for my decision on my career, and its coming quickly, so I guess in the next two months you'll get to see where this whining windbag goes... I'll be your guinea pig.

SD

Just strolling by, but that sounds like a disaster. What, if you don't change jobs she expects you to stay at a law firm (or whatever your current gig is) for the rest of your life? Now, I know there are financial stability issues, and perhaps changing jobs while kids are coming isn't a good idea, but I hope for your sake you can change when something comes along without your wife telling you the deadline's passed.

[Fugee]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
In Philly, $140K is about as high as an associate will ever make in BigLaw. This is a very good suggestion and one I hadn't considered yet. Thanks for giving me some new research.

Well, the Mrs. has set a deadline for my decision on my career, and its coming quickly, so I guess in the next two months you'll get to see where this whining windbag goes... I'll be your guinea pig.

SD

If $140K is the top for BigLaw associate salaries in Philly, I think the adjustment for mediation income in Minneapolis would go up, not down. Sounds good to me. Also, there is probably more mediation business here -- the trial court judges are so bloody busy they send almost all civil litigation out for mediation to try to get it settled. I wouldn't get the big cases for a long time, if ever (several retired judges are mediators and get them), but I could be happy with small stuff if I could more or less set my own schedule.

So what's the deal with the deadline from the Mrs? I agree that making a life decision to meet an artificial deadline is fraught with peril (one of my fave phrases). You are clearly not happy doing what you are, but don't just jump to jump.

If you are trying to figure out what to do, I highly recommend taking one or more interest/values tests from a professional career counselor. They will help you zero in on what aspects of a job (other than salary) you would like and where to look for those.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
E/O,

In Philly, $140K is about as high as an associate will ever make in BigLaw.

Are you serious? Even for senior associates? Or are you just talking about first years (tho it seems a little high for that)? BigTex pays better than that, and we don't have y'all's income taxes and high insurance rates and stuff.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Just strolling by, but that sounds like a disaster. What, if you don't change jobs she expects you to stay at a law firm (or whatever your current gig is) for the rest of your life? Now, I know there are financial stability issues, and perhaps changing jobs while kids are coming isn't a good idea, but I hope for your sake you can change when something comes along without your wife telling you the deadline's passed.

I would think the deadline may be on yapping about it. If he doesn't switch within x amount of time, he has to stop talking about wanting to switch. Though I can't imagine WHY anyone would feel the need to set a boundary like that.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Fugee
If you are trying to figure out what to do, I highly recommend taking one or more interest/values tests from a professional career counselor. They will help you zero in on what aspects of a job (other than salary) you would like and where to look for those.

There was some article in the WSJ last week about online ones (including ones that included consultations with real live counselors), like evaluating them or something. That may be too Consumers Reports for you, but it was an interesting article.