Hp&hbp Spoilers

[tmdiva]

Originally posted by dtb
There were lots of mentions in OOTP about his seeming older and a lot more tired than he had been. He had to go, I know, but it's so sad! What a great character he is.

Anyone else always hear him speaking in the voice of Richard Harris?

Thanks for posting the analysis, RT. Loved every bit of it. And I was never into Buffy myself, but one of my friends is a published Buffy scholar.

tm

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by andViolins
It struck me while reading HBP that ADD (I just can't get used to referring to Dumbledore as DD - I don't know why. I'm trying to compromise) seemed a lot less "SUPERWIZARD" in this book. Not just after he drank the poison. Starting with his destroyed hand, he just seemed to be not as great and all-mighty as JKR had made him out to be in the first five books. I know that she tried to cover it by discussing his advanced age, etc., but it just seemed to occur extraordinarily quickly. He was a goner from the very start. This was the only wizard that Voldemort was ever afriad of - who battled him in OotP, who took on the ministry and the Aurors, etc., etc. and he just seemed old and tired. Perhaps as was stated in the link (all the theories and spoilers) he was aware of what ultimately was going to happen to him and didn't have his heart in the fight any longer.

aV

I thought that maybe he was deliberately weakening himself, so he didn't inadvertedly end up killing Draco if Draco went through with his orders.

Dumbledore had to have known that Draco was instructed to kill him. He had to have known about the curse. Given how much extra protection he's put on Hogwarts, on Harry and on a variety of other things Dumbledore cares about, it makes sense that he's probably got hundreds of spells and charms and deflectors up on himself.

Did any one else sort of get the impression that Dumbledore and Snape were much, much more concerned about Draco's well being than they were Harry's. This was the first book where there wasn't an on-going direct threat to Harry's life from Voldermort or one of his gang. Sure, one of those Death Eaters probably wouldn't have hesitated to kill Harry, but he wasn't the big focus of the year.

[SEC_Chick]

So I mentioned this thread to Mr. Chick, suggesting he peruse it upon completing the book (we are so geeky we had to buy 2 copies on Saturday so we could each read it ASAP). His first comment was "I bet it's all chicks posting, isn't it."

I responded, "Well, they are all women on the internet, fwiw."

[andViolins]

Originally posted by SEC_Chick
So I mentioned this thread to Mr. Chick, suggesting he peruse it upon completing the book (we are so geeky we had to buy 2 copies on Saturday so we could each read it ASAP). His first comment was "I bet it's all chicks posting, isn't it."

I responded, "Well, they are all women on the internet, fwiw."

Um. I don't know if I should be offended or not.

Or perhaps I should look at it the same way as the guys who were smart enough to take theater or sing in the choir in high school.

Hmmmm.

aV

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by tmdiva
Anyone else always hear him speaking in the voice of Richard Harris?

Thanks for posting the analysis, RT. Loved every bit of it. And I was never into Buffy myself, but one of my friends is a published Buffy scholar.

tm

No problem. If I see any more that's interesting, I'll post it here. Most of my published Buffy friends write about the fandom rather than the show. We all deconstructed the show too much in the early days to have had much interest in redoing the analysis when it became an academic endeavor. It's only work if someone makes you do it, and all that.

[dtb]

OK, here's what I noticed, upon first read, of repeated themes:

• Rude/rudeness
  Rude hand gestures
  Love (duh - but still, this was a lot more at the forefront this go-round)

That's all I can think of now -- but I have more in my annotated copy.

[andViolins]

Why did JKR spend so much time on the Hagrid/Aragog plot line? It seemed to be just filler in HBP. Is this a set-up for 7 in that the spider children choose a side in the "final battle?"

aV

[dtb]

Good question.

I think the venom extracted by Slughorn will have to come into play. I can't imagine the spider "children" will choose a side -- they're on their own side, and will eat whatever comes into their path. I did think that perhaps Snape will have something to do with the spiders (as the name of his street is Spinners End), but I can't figure out what.

I reread the two chapters last night involving the death scene (on the tower -- by the way, I'm sure you all noticed that Trelawney does predict something about the light over the tower before it happens) with the post that RT posted yesterday (about how Snape acted on DD's orders, not his own viciousness), and it makes perfect sense. That was really inspired (whoever wrote that).

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by andViolins
Why did JKR spend so much time on the Hagrid/Aragog plot line? It seemed to be just filler in HBP. Is this a set-up for 7 in that the spider children choose a side in the "final battle?"

aV

I thought it was maybe to throw us off with chapter titles. "After the burial" or something like that had me very worried until I realized it was just Aragog. I imagine, though, that venom will come in useful later on down the line. My guess is that Snape will have a use for it, and Harry will have to figure out how to pry it out of Slughorn.

In other news, Mircalla expanded on her Snape theory. I especially like in the comments: "As for Snape, I agree, I think it would take more then just plain remorse for Dumbledore to believe Snape, which is why I'm afraid Snape will turn out to have been harboring kinky 'Lilly Potter is a MILF' feelings, made all the more torturous by his wild threesomes with the Malfoys."

For the livejournal impaired dtb:

• All Harry Potter, all the time.
  
  
  As promised (haha, bet you'd hoped I would forget!): Here are my thoughts about Snape.
  
  First of all: I hate Snape. I have always hated Snape. I always *will* hate Snape. He is a petty and twisted little tyrant. Ugh.
  
  That having been said: I don’t actually believe that he’s working on the side of evil. Or, let me rephrase that: I *do* think he is a nasty piece of work, BUT I think that his killing of Dumbledore was all part of the deep Dumbledorean plan for the universe. Shut up. I do.
  
  I’ve heard the “Dumbledore knew he was dying (because of the potion he drank in the cave) and he didn’t want Draco to have blood on his hands, so when Snape arrived he communicated with him via Legimancy (at which they are both experts) to kill him.” And I think that this theory is essentially correct. I think it’s missing a few pieces – for example, Snape must have known that there was a distinct possibility that the Unbreakable Vow he made to Narcissa would end with him having to kill Dumbledore, and that happened at the beginning of the book – but I *do* agree that Snape killed Dumbledore at Dumbledore’s own request.
  
  But I wanted to establish up front that this is not me trying to *defend* the man. He’s a prick.
  
  Secondly: This is very complicated, and I haven’t worked it all out in my head, so think of it as a theory-in-progress. But here’s why I think that Snape is working with Dumbledore, and why Dumbledore trusts him even in the face of all the evidence against him.
  
  Mircalla’s Long Involved Theory of Snapitude:
  
  I don’t believe FOR ONE SECOND that Snape felt remorse over the murder of Lily and James. Why on earth would he? He hated James with the fiery passion of a thousand suns, and Lily he despised for being a mudblood. He was a Death Eater and he’d probably BECOME a Death Eater just so he could get away with killing mudbloods, blood traitors, and people who picked on him in school. It was sort of his raison d’etre, I’m thinking. And chances are he’d already personally killed plenty of people, so why suddenly feel guilty about being indirectly responsible for the deaths of two people he couldn’t stand?
  
  Here’s what I think. Because James had saved Snape’s life, and because such an action creates some sort of bond or debt between two wizards (very deep magic, as Dumbledore said), I think that it is quite possible that causing the death of the person who had saved your life might cause a HUGE karmic backlash in the Potterverse. Like whoa.
  
  So once Snape realized what he’d done, he panicked. I think (here’s where things get a little murky, so bear with me) but I *think* that it’s possible that his only hope for salvation of sorts lies in Harry, the only survivor of the events that Snape initiated, and the last Potter. I think that if Harry dies before Snape has the opportunity to “pay off” his debt in some way, the consequences could be devastating for Snape. Like the SUFFER FOR ALL ETERNITY, YO kind of devastating.
  
  So it’s vital to Snape that Harry doesn’t die, until Snape does…whatever it is he needs to do to wipe the slate clean. Snape goes to Dumbledore for advice. AND THAT IS WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTS SNAPE. Not because Snape made a great show of contrition – come on, can you even *imagine* Snape doing such a thing? Can you imagine Dumbledore buying it if he did? -- but because Snape’s very SOUL is riding on ensuring Harry’s safety. He CANNOT do anything that might lead to Harry’s death, and in fact would do just about anything to ensure that Harry does not die. Dumbledore doesn’t trust Snape’s inherent goodness, but he DOES trust Snape’s self-preservation instinct. Snape is SCARED. That is one of the reasons that he reacts so strongly to being called a coward – his actions are motivated by fear. Not remorse, not guilt, FEAR. I really think that Dumbledore is too wise to trust someone like Snape under any other circumstances.
  
  Part Two to Come….
  
  Anyway…thoughts? Comments? Help me put my theory together, people!!
  
  Edit: You know, I just thought of something else, and I don't know whether it supports or contradicts my weird theory of Snape. Peter owes his life to Harry. He did appear to be trying to talk Voldemort out of using Harry for the revival ceremony in GoF. Is this because there's a little part of Peter that doesn't want to see Harry die, or is that because Peter knows that if he helps Voldemort kill Harry, then he (Peter) will be stuck in the same trap that Snape's in? Hmmm. I must ponder. Obviously I have lots of kinks to work out with this theory, but even if I'm wildly off-base, it's still fun to speculate.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
"As for Snape, I agree, I think it would take more then just plain remorse for Dumbledore to believe Snape, which is why I'm afraid Snape will turn out to have been harboring kinky 'Lilly Potter is a MILF' feelings, made all the more torturous by his wild threesomes with the Malfoys."

First off, thank you for remembering my disability!

Secondly, YES!!! I thought the same thing last night -- how would remorse be enough to convince Dumbledore? In fact, for a moment, I thought maybe I had read too quickly over the "real" reason, because the remorse reason is so flimsy. I have no theories on the real reason, but it's got to be more than remorse.

[andViolins]

Originally posted by dtb
First off, thank you for remembering my disability!

Secondly, YES!!! I thought the same thing last night -- how would remorse be enough to convince Dumbledore? In fact, for a moment, I thought maybe I had read too quickly over the "real" reason, because the remorse reason is so flimsy. I have no theories on the real reason, but it's got to be more than remorse.

Is there any reason why Snape couldn't have made an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore to keep Harry alive, whatever the cost?

aV

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by andViolins
Is there any reason why Snape couldn't have made an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore to keep Harry alive, whatever the cost?

aV

Could it interfere with one of the other Unbreakable Vows? Is there an Unbreakable Vow hierarchy?

[dtb]

Originally posted by andViolins
Is there any reason why Snape couldn't have made an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore to keep Harry alive, whatever the cost?

aV

Clever. You know the "Unbreakable Vow" will have to resurface, as all the new magical elements pop up again.

That's as good a guess as any, although the nature of the vow could be anything.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by dtb
Clever. You know the "Unbreakable Vow" will have to resurface, as all the new magical elements pop up again.

That's as good a guess as any, although the nature of the vow could be anything.

1 Dumbledore is alive- duh.
2 Snape will end up a good guy.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Could it interfere with one of the other Unbreakable Vows? Is there an Unbreakable Vow hierarchy?

Perhaps directly conflicting unbreakable vows would make one's head explode. But, in this case, Snape could have made such an unbreakable vow and has in fact kept it if made. Harry is alive, and even though it is perhaps due only to Dumbledore freezing him, Snape only promised to protect Malfoy and complete his mission, which was to kill Dumbledore. I didn't think Harry was an element of Snape's Unbreakable Vow.

Or am I missing something.