Politics: J'accuse! - Page 217

Not Me · 04-30-2004, 11:34 PM

This is a sad story about the families of the prison guards who are in trouble:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal...home-headlines

Shape Shifter · 04-30-2004, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Those of you expressing shock at the degrading treatment of Iraqui prisioners by 20 year old US and British soldiers, know i do not find you un-american. I do find Shape Shifter un-American -he's Canadian- but other wise youcan certainly ask the question.

the prisioners, is it not likely they are these guerillas who are planting bombs and killing friends of these young men? I don't buy into their being anything other than a delayed military tactic- but I don't think these troops look at it that way. Here we all are posting on some waste of time page while making 6 figures, while these kids are seeing their friends killed by non-regular troops. might I take a pee on them if i were 20 and in Iraqui? thats a hypo I don't need to answer.
the rest of you, while you swill your Medoc 2nd growth, consider the above.

Thanks, Hank. You've put me in the uncomfortable position of agreeing more or less with Not Me. This wasn't torture, nor was it an overly outageous violation of human rights. I'm sure worse is happening in fraternity houses across the nation as we speak.

But it was horrible pr. Can you imagine the reaction in the US (and most of the West) if those were our soldiers? I'd be pissed. Mightily. Right now many in the Arab world are pissed and rightly so. We've inflamed passions and given up the moral high ground (remember, we're there as "liberators").

That's not going to make it any easier to pacify Iraq and win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people or the Middle East. That means we'll be there longer and pay the price in soldiers' lives and our granchildren's money.

And nice cheap shot on the Canadian bit. It doesn't make me a bad person, you racist fuck.

Hank Chinaski · 04-30-2004, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Thanks, Hank. You've put me in the uncomfortable position of agreeing more or less with Not Me.

you keep that shit up for 89 more days and it might pay off, lil brother

Not Me · 04-30-2004, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
you keep that shit up for 89 more days and it might pay off, lil brother

Umm, you forgot about all the expensive dinners/gifts/trips that have to go along with the being nice stuff. Remember, I need a man to invest in a relationship, IYKWIM.

Shape Shifter · 05-01-2004, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
Umm, you forgot about all the expensive dinners/gifts/trips that have to go along with the being nice stuff. Remember, I need a man to invest in a relationship, IYKWIM.

If the picture Hank posted on the fb is any indication, I'm not sure I can afford that many dinners. Any maybe some of those investments should be liquidated.

Say_hello_for_me · 05-01-2004, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
They didn't take pictures did they?

Who would be so stupid as to take pictures like these people who were caught did?

Did you see the picture of the british soldier peeing on a prisoner? Someone actually took a picture of that. Unbelievably stupid.

I am 99.9% confident that the pictures were taken by someone who was appalled at the conduct. For what its worth, the behavior is stupid (and yeah, insulting and provocative etc.), but it is a bunch of young soldiers after all, not well-trained police officers etc.... Somewhere, an officer deserves to be given a dishonorable discharge, a demotion, and a kick in the ass.

What bothers me more than anything, is that these guys were doing this stuff in public, in front of what, hundreds of witnesses? over time? These guys took some very stupid risks to have their fun.

Along these lines, I've always had a theory about cops and bad guys, and how cops are supposed to act when they harm a civilian, even without cause.

The bottom line is that they are supposed to say "I was in fear for my life", citing any decent and true reasons when and if applicable. What gets them in trouble is when they deny the beating or the whack or the shot or whatever, and then forensic or eyewitness or video evidence comes forward. Bosses hate it when their boys make them liars. But almost nobody (well, nobody in charge) will second-guess a good story about one being in fear for his life and limbs.

But thats an aside. These kids will never, ever, be able to conjure up stories that will justify some of these actions. Somewhere an officer (or 5 or 10 or 15) needs to be disciplined. If you are going to make 100 nakes prisoners form a pyramid or simulate whatever they were simulating, take them into a dark alley where there are no witnesses. and no cameras Sheesh.

Hello

Not Me · 05-01-2004, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
If the picture Hank posted on the fb is any indication, I'm not sure I can afford that many dinners. Any maybe some of those investments should be liquidated.

SS - If how I picture you in my mind is any indication, you are not my type:

bilmore · 05-01-2004, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Sounds like a fun bunch. What did they do when they got to Iraq?

BDJOTM

(Best Detroit Joke of the Month.)

Not Me · 05-01-2004, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I am 99.9% confident that the pictures were taken by someone who was appalled at the conduct.

Maybe but they seem to be posing for them and smiling in the pictures as if they knew they were being photographed and were happy to be photographed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
For what its worth, the behavior is stupid (and yeah, insulting and provocative etc.), but it is a bunch of young soldiers after all, not well-trained police officers etc.... Somewhere, an officer deserves to be given a dishonorable discharge, a demotion, and a kick in the ass.

True, but the one guy facing a court marshal is not in his 20's and is a prison guard in a VA prison. He is a reservist. He should have known better.

Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
What bothers me more than anything, is that these guys were doing this stuff in public, in front of what, hundreds of witnesses? over time? These guys took some very stupid risks to have their fun.

I feel bad for them because they didn't hurt these people, although they did humiliate them. But how could they have been so stupid as to take pictures? I don't think they were tricked into the pictures. They looked like they were posing for them.

bilmore · 05-01-2004, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
the rest of you, while you swill your Medoc 2nd growth, consider the above.

My thoughts exactly.

After watching bombs shred your buds along with the kids, women, and men who happened to be in the wrong spot, Hamas fighters shooting more of your buds from behind kids, and seeing the influx of foreign fighters who care nothing for all of the innocent Iraqis but who are only trying to kill a new government and the hope for a country, I think I'd piss in their faces, too, and it would bother me not at all for their friends to see pictures of them thus "degraded". I might even spread those pics around myself. I, however, would probably have a harder time letting them live afterwards. I am older, and not particularly amenable to military discipline.

Not Me · 05-01-2004, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
My thoughts exactly.

After watching bombs shred your buds along with the kids, women, and men who happened to be in the wrong spot, Hamas fighters shooting more of your buds from behind kids, and seeing the influx of foreign fighters who care nothing for all of the innocent Iraqis but who are only trying to kill a new government and the hope for a country, I think I'd piss in their faces, too, and it would bother me not at all for their friends to see pictures of them thus "degraded".

Read the article I posted about the families. That isn't who these people were. They were from a reserve unit of military police. They weren't on the front lines watching their buds getting killed. I am sure they heard about it, though. The saddest thing is that they have made things worse for those on the front lines.

I am not condemning them to hell. But what did they think would happen to them if anyone saw those photos? Anyone with an ounce of common sense should have realized that they would have been made an example of. That is what is going to happen to them. They are going to be made examples of and punished far more harshly than what they did deserves.

ltl/fb · 05-01-2004, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
On the age, the guy in the picture with the moustash, I believe that he is a reservist in his 30's who is a prison guard back in the states if I am remembering correctly.

Federal or state prison? What state?

I could easily believe TX state prisons, except that I think the prisoners run those. Maybe he was being the big man this time.

bilmore · 05-01-2004, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
Read the article I posted about the families. That isn't who these people were. They were from a reserve unit of military police. They weren't on the front lines watching their buds getting killed.

Yeah, that does change my view. Like, 180.

Shape Shifter · 05-01-2004, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
SS - If how I picture you in my mind is any indication, you are not my type:

I'd fuck me.

Not Me · 05-01-2004, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I'd fuck me.

How is that any different than any other night of the week?