Politics As Usual

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

What they did to this kid they did to get to his father. They were trying to get the father to talk, so they abused his children. That's barbaric. That shit doesn't happen in San Francisco, it doesn't happen in Oakland, and we shouldn't be doing it in Iraq.

I agree this was a particularly sickening account, if its true. And its torture too.

That said, you earlier said this would drive you to violence if it happened to your son. Ironically!!!, this allegedly happened to his son because he had been driven to violence. Chicken/egg problem here?

I ain't justifying it though. We don't intentionally punish the weak or the innocent or whatever, and it sounds like someone did here.

Oh, and would anyone like to change their answer on Karpinski? Anyone in command on-site there should be taken to task for the lack of discipline there. And if she was following illegal "orders" (yeah, right), why didn't get them "in writing"?

Ooh, ooh. Did someone just mention affirmative action?

Hello

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
do you blame Rumsfeld for the naked pixs of Kerry's daughter?

Cite please?

Originally posted by the Spartan
1. A 16 year old is not a "child".

2. If you are really that concerned then I would suggest that you take a more active interest as to what kind of shit the local police in places like SF and Oakland pull on 16 year old and younger inner city kids in the name of protecting the public. On your tax dollars. The type of ritualized abuse of rights that every major metropolitan police force engages in concerns far more than what happens in an war zone.

I'm scoring this one for Ty. The old switcheroo never cut much ice to begin with, plus also I have heard every neo-con in the world say that just because there's injustice everywhere doesn't mean we shouldn't invade Ir -- I mean fight injustice and abuse where we can. On my tax dollars.

[the Spartan]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[ASIDE]Since you seem to be troubled by what happens in Oakland, maybe we should have devoted more federal resources to fixing what's wrong there instead of embarking on an expensive frolic to make Iraq into a different kind of pit. Or maybe your idea of doing something about this "type of ritualized abuse of rights" that troubles you so is to post the latest pictures of Hillary and Kerry? What, exactly, is any Republican that you can think of willing to do to make Oakland a better place for children? Arnold is the flavor of the minute, and he's not exactly helping.

You don't really need to respond to those questions if -- as I suspect -- you are invoking San Francisco and Oakland simply to change the subject.[/ASIDE]

think globally, act locally. Let the people of Oakland figure it out. For my part I have tried to involved myself in the process in Seattle. I spent years lobbying the city on constitutional abuses of their legislative power. I publicly denounced the city council as facists. And ignorant ones at that. To the applause of the masses. Oakland is up to you and sidd.

What they did to this kid they did to get to his father. They were trying to get the father to talk, so they abused his children. That's barbaric. That shit doesn't happen in San Francisco, it doesn't happen in Oakland, and we shouldn't be doing it in Iraq.

No. worse shit happens. Abuse is abuse. it bothers me less in a war zone thousands of miles away than it does on our own soil.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Ironically!!!, this allegedly happened to his son because he had been driven to violence. Chicken/egg problem here?

You don't even know that. Maybe the father was guilty of something, maybe he wasn't and that was the reason he'd had nothing to say. Maybe he started dishing dirt once he saw what they were doing to his son, maybe he just started saying whatever he thought they wanted to hear so they would stop.

But even if you assume that the father was a bad guy, it doesn't excuse what we did to the kid. That shit was unAmerican.

Remember, also, that the abuses started, by all accounts, when the insurrection started up late last fall. We didn't know what we were up against, and we were doing whatever we could. In those situations, you can bet we picked up a lot of innocent people.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by the Spartan
think globally, act locally. Let the people of Oakland figure it out. For my part I have tried to involved myself in the process in Seattle. I spent years lobbying the city on constitutional abuses of their legislative power. I publicly denounced the city council as facists. And ignorant ones at that. To the applause of the masses. Oakland is up to you and sidd.

The police in these cities often use represssive tactics because they don't have the resources to do their jobs right. And because they are left holding the bag. Thanks to conservative tax cutters, municipal governments in California cannot fund themselves with property taxes. As a result, they depend on the state. Thanks to Arnold, the state is cutting funding to places like Oakland, which is cutting city services, like the police. You get what you pay for. Having Sidd tell Jerry Brown that he's a fascist isn't going to help much.

Abuse is abuse. it bothers me less in a war zone thousands of miles away than it does on our own soil.

I know. You only have so much outrage, and it's important to save it for Ted Kennedy and HRC.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You don't even know that

I used the word allegedly because it was alleged. I do know that.

Hello

1-0 for the last 5 minutes.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I used the word allegedly because it was alleged. I do know that.

Hello

1-0 for the last 5 minutes.

Grammatically, you are 0-1. When you said

• this allegedly happened to his son because he had been driven to violence.

the word "allegedly" modified what "happened to his son" -- i.e., suggesting that maybe his son wasn't really abused -- not that the father allegedly "had been driven to violence." As phrased you minimized what we did to his son, while accepting that the father had done something prompting all of this. Perhaps not what you meant, but that's what you said.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The police in these cities often use represssive tactics because they don't have the resources to do their jobs right. And because they are left holding the bag. Thanks to conservative tax cutters, municipal governments in California cannot fund themselves with property taxes. As a result, they depend on the state. Thanks to Arnold, the state is cutting funding to places like Oakland, which is cutting city services, like the police. You get what you pay for. Having Sidd tell Jerry Brown that he's a fascist isn't going to help much.

This is laughable. It has nothing to do with funding. It has everything to do with the individual cops on the beat. There are a lot of great cops out there, but there are also some sickos that take it over the line without cause.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Grammatically, you are 0-1. When you said

• this allegedly happened to his son because he had been driven to violence.

the word "allegedly" modified what "happened to his son" -- i.e., suggesting that maybe his son wasn't really abused -- not that the father allegedly "had been driven to violence." As phrased you minimized what we did to his son, while accepting that the father had done something prompting all of this. Perhaps not what you meant, but that's what you said.

Dangling participle?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
This is laughable. It has nothing to do with funding. It has everything to do with the individual cops on the beat. There are a lot of great cops out there, but there are also some sickos that take it over the line without cause.

At the most basic level, cities that can't afford to pay more for cops get the ones they deserve. If you're a good cop, do you stay in Oakland or take a job in (e.g.) Kensington? Let's not even get into the whole social-conditions-as-the-basis-for-unrest stuff that conservatives are deploying as an excuse for fuck-ups in Iraq.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Grammatically, you are 0-1. When you said

• this allegedly happened to his son because he had been driven to violence.

the word "allegedly" modified what "happened to his son" -- i.e., suggesting that maybe his son wasn't really abused -- not that the father allegedly "had been driven to violence." As phrased you minimized what we did to his son, while accepting that the father had done something prompting all of this. Perhaps not what you meant, but that's what you said.

But " allegedly happened to his alleged son allegedly because he allegedly had allegedly been driven to alleged violence" would have been redundant. I figured y'all would see it as modifying everything that followed in the story.

Hello

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
But " allegedly happened to his alleged son allegedly because he allegedly had allegedly been driven to alleged violence" would have been redundant. I figured y'all would see it as modifying everything that followed in the story.

Hello

He has a point. I believe we set a continuing "allegedly" on anything cited in one of Ty's posts.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
But " allegedly happened to his alleged son allegedly because he allegedly had allegedly been driven to alleged violence" would have been redundant. I figured y'all would see it as modifying everything that followed in the story.

I feel the same way about "promote the general welfare" but I can't seem to command a majority on the SCOTUS.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
At the most basic level, cities that can't afford to pay more for cops get the ones they deserve. If you're a good cop, do you stay in Oakland or take a job in (e.g.) Kensington? Let's not even get into the whole social-conditions-as-the-basis-for-unrest stuff that conservatives are deploying as an excuse for fuck-ups in Iraq.

Are you saying that police in wealthy white suburbs never abuse African-American suspects? Please, Ty -- you won the argument with Penske (Wahhabi Repub sputtering when confronted with US torture of prisoners is entertaining, but not really in the way it is intended), but you're going off the deep end here.