Politics: A new beginning - Page 256

Hank Chinaski · 01-13-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
When you try your first fraud case on the defense side, you'll be tempted to put on some great evidence of truthfulness that you found in the plaintiff's document production. Resist the temptation. You will realize too late that the evidence you presented actually proves detrimental reliance, which I need not tell you is part of the plaintiff's case in chief and his burden to prove.

I think George Romney is still alive. Clark might want to float the "brainwashed" explanation by him, before taking it to the national audience.

Secret_Agent_Man · 01-13-2004, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108140,00.html

I must say, this is welcoming news that the ACLU is not completely a partisan institution.

Actually club, the ACLU is pretty determinedly non-partisan -- on free speech issues, they represent or support lots of folks whose views the (generally liberal) members and/or attorneys tend to disagree with.

S_A_M

Secret_Agent_Man · 01-13-2004, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
No worries. President Bush said on Friday that the declining unemployment rate is good news.

Hey, employment figures ARE a lagging indicator of economic performance. [Just don't want it to lag quite that much, s'all.]

S_A_M

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) · 01-13-2004, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub

I must say, this is welcoming news that the ACLU is not completely a partisan institution.

What, did their defense of the nazis in skokie have you convinced they were right-leaning hate mongers?

bilmore · 01-13-2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What, did their defense of the nazis in skokie have you convinced they were right-leaning hate mongers?

You must admit, they have recently been more known as the PC police than anything else. It is nice to see them fulfilling their true mission.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) · 01-13-2004, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
You must admit, they have recently been more known as the PC police than anything else. It is nice to see them fulfilling their true mission.

Yes, but for that I blame Ashcroft.

bilmore · 01-13-2004, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Yes, but for that I blame Ashcroft.

Yeah, but you blame bad weather on Ashcroft.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) · 01-13-2004, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Yeah, but you blame bad weather on Ashcroft.

No, that's Ty. I blame the stark erosion of civil liberties on Ashcroft and his ilk.

Hank Chinaski · 01-13-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
No, that's Ty. I blame the stark erosion of civil liberties on Ashcroft and his ilk.

Burger, you're rational, so I'm glad you said this. I can't get anyone who says "rights erosion" to tell me what rights have eroded, beyond suspected terrorists who were grabbed and held incommunicado, or the guys at Gitmo. Put aside these guys, and not asking you to agree these actions are right, what other rights have eroded? I understand the slippery slope argument of grabbing guys who appear to have some tie, and how it could get to looser ties. Anything else? Honest question, please answer.

Watchtower · 01-13-2004, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108140,00.html

I must say, this is welcoming news that the ACLU is not completely a partisan institution.

I note that the ACLU has backed groups such as the Nazis at Skokie. They are among the most idealistic organizations around, and are perfectly willing to tweak the partisan politics of many of their own backers when they see any inconsistency or hypocracy on first amendment and civil rights issues.

I'm very proud of my ACLU. They're the kind of people Jehovah's Witnesses, Telemarketers, Conservative Shock-Jocks, Nazis and other discrete and insular minorities can count on.

Watchtower · 01-13-2004, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Burger, you're rational, so I'm glad you said this. I can't get anyone who says "rights erosion" to tell me what rights have eroded, beyond suspected terrorists who were grabbed and held incommunicado, or the guys at Gitmo. Put aside these guys, and not asking you to agree these actions are right, what other rights have eroded? I understand the slippery slope argument of grabbing guys who appear to have some tie, and how it could get to looser ties. Anything else? Honest question, please answer.

I was watching the news last night, and they were talking about a computer program that the government is installing that will classify everyone who travels based on algoritms (naturally, they will be secret since if they were otherwise they would be easily defeated), and will put them into red (can't travel by air), yellow (additional screening) and green (travel freely) categories. I can't tell you who will be affected, because, of course, that is secret, but I can tell you that some portion of the American public is going to be denied the right to travel by air based only on suspicions.

Even if you do not accept the idea that infringing on one person's rights (simply because they are, as you say, a "suspect") infringes on all of our rights, this strikes me as a fairly serious invasion of civil rights for a large number of people.

And this is just an offhand example from the last 24 hours.

Replaced_Texan · 01-13-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Burger, you're rational, so I'm glad you said this. I can't get anyone who says "rights erosion" to tell me what rights have eroded, beyond suspected terrorists who were grabbed and held incommunicado, or the guys at Gitmo. Put aside these guys, and not asking you to agree these actions are right, what other rights have eroded? I understand the slippery slope argument of grabbing guys who appear to have some tie, and how it could get to looser ties. Anything else? Honest question, please answer.

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=1594302(spree: NPR audio link dated 1/12/2004 The Justice Department says the controversial USA Patriot Act provides invaluable tools to track down terrorists and prevent any future attacks. But since it was quickly passed into law just over two years ago, the Patriot Act has also been used in other types of criminal cases -- everything from fraud to political corruption probes. NPR's Jackie Northam reports.)

bilmore · 01-13-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
No, that's Ty. I blame the stark erosion of civil liberties on Ashcroft and his ilk.

Even Hilary Clinton laughs at this assertion. "Stark erosion"? What's changed? Has anyone looked to see what library books you've checked out? Have any of the major precepts of the Patriot Act been used, anywhere? This trikes me as the most overblown, least supported hysteria in history. (Not your statement - I mean the huge outcry over a non-existent change.)

Bad_Rich_Chic · 01-13-2004, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Watchtower
...some portion of the American public is going to be denied the right to travel by air based only on suspicions. ... this strikes me as a fairly serious invasion of civil rights for a large number of people.

Not that this doesn't sound like a bad idea, but ... air travel is a civil right?

sgtclub · 01-13-2004, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Actually club, the ACLU is pretty determinedly non-partisan -- on free speech issues, they represent or support lots of folks whose views the (generally liberal) members and/or attorneys tend to disagree with.

S_A_M

Yes, on free speech they have a decent record. On other issues (e.g., freedom of religion*) not so much.