Nutjobs Ranting About Politics.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
More Today

Here's what the new papers showed, according to the AP. (Damning stuff.)


AP: Lawsuit Gets Bush Guard Papers Out
Sep 7, 7:40 PM (ET)
By MATT KELLEY

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush was ranked in the middle of his Air National Guard class and flew more than 336 hours in a fighter jet before letting his pilot status lapse and missing a key readiness drill, according to his flight records belatedly uncovered Tuesday under the Freedom of Information Act.

The Pentagon and Bush's campaign have claimed for months that all records detailing his fighter pilot career have been made public, but defense officials said they found two dozen new records detailing his training and flight logs after The Associated Press filed a lawsuit and crafted new requests under the public records law.

"Previous requests from other requesters for President Bush's Individual Flight Records did not lead to the discovery of these records because at the time President Bush left the service, flight records were subject to retention for only 24 months and we understood that neither the Air Force nor the Texas Air National Guard retained such records thereafter," the Pentagon told the AP.

"Out of an abundance of caution," the government "searched a file that had been preserved in spite of this policy" and found the Bush records, the letter said. "The Department of Defense regrets this oversight during the previous search efforts."

The records show Bush, a lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, was ranked No. 22 in a class of 53 pilots when he finished his flight training at Moody Air Force Base in Georgia in 1969.

Over the next three years, he logged 326.4 hours as a pilot and an additional 9.9 hours as a co-pilot, mostly in his the F-102a jet used to intercept enemy aircraft.

The records show his last flight came on April 1972, which is consistent with his pay records that show Bush had a large lapse of duty between April and October of that year, a time he says he went to Alabama to work on an unsuccessful Republican Senate campaign. Bush skipped a required medical exam that cost his pilot's status in August 1972.

A six-month historical record of his 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, also turned over to the AP on Tuesday, shows some of the training Bush missed with his colleagues during that time.

Significantly, it showed the unit joined a "24-hour active alert mission to safeguard against surprise attack" in the southern United State beginning on Oct. 6, 1972, a time when Bush did not report for duty, according to his pay records.

Bush's lone service in October came at another air base an Alabama, where he sought temporary permission to train away from his assigned squadron.

As part of the mission, the 147th kept two F-102a jets - the same Bush flew before he lost his flight status for skipping a required medical exam - on ready alert to be launched within five minutes warning.

The records also indicate Bush made good grades, scoring an 88 on total airmanship and earning perfect 100 for flying without navigational instruments, operating a T-38 System and studying applied aerodynamics. Other scores ranged from 89 in flight planning to 98 in aviation physiology.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Actually, most of the so-called swifties weren't there, but were on other boats or were folks somewhere in a chain of command. The guys who were there overwhelmingly back Kerry.

I saw a story last week (Boston Globe) about a Swift vet whose name appears in the list of the 250 (or whatever #) who never authorized them to use his name and does not agree with what they're doing.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Fontes=Clinton
Moeller=W
Kerry=Marty

Millen should have given Moeller more time. He was hit with the residue of fontes fuck ups. He didn't give Moeller the chance, and we took continous losses for a long while.

Mariucci must be Giuliani then. Although I don't like Millen being the American public.

[SlaveNoMore]

bilmore
Here's what the new papers showed, according to the AP. (Damning stuff.)

But why look at the records when your mind is already made up?

Two articles detailing fully where he was when and with whom can be found here and here

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Actually, most of the so-called swifties weren't there, but were on other boats or were folks somewhere in a chain of command. The guys who were there overwhelmingly back Kerry.

Now, try to say that about W's national guard service -- he can't find the guys who were there!

By the way, I find Bush's apparent shirking of his duty astonishing. If you've got to do something, NG is a pretty good gig - a far cry from a sweltering jungle teaming with exotic rodents. I spent my youth around NG camps, hanging out w/ my dad in the BOQ, having underage beers with the guys, learning that trig is good because it helps you blow up surplus equipment with a howitzer. Why would Bush, noted party animal that he was, avoid this? He must have thought it was beneath him or something.

Just not true. First you have to look at which allegation. On the Rassmasan story, for example, although they weren't on the same boat, there were several boats there at the time and they were on the other boats.

For what it's worth, I don't really care about the medal controversy. But I don't see how the accounts of 250 soldiers can be dismissed so easily, and frankly, neither does the general public.

The Bush NG story is irrevelevant, even if true.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I just hope that the mainstream "liberal media" won't be afraid to pick up this story and run with it like FNC did with the SwiftBoats ads.

You want them to cancel Sixty Minutes?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by bilmore
Here's what the new papers showed, according to the AP. (Damning stuff.)


AP: Lawsuit Gets Bush Guard Papers Out
Sep 7, 7:40 PM (ET)
By MATT KELLEY

The AP (conclusively demonstrated on this board to be Liberal Co-Conspirators) story is saying essentially that Bush got good grades in K-11, and warm commendations from his teachers.

The Globe story seems to focus on the 12th grade, in which noone could find him but for which he still received his diploma.

How do you figure the AP story refutes the Globe, exactly? Is the AP just paying penance for a few days?

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
I saw a story last week (Boston Globe) about a Swift vet ...

Yes, well, we all know how good the reporting has been from the Globe as of late.

For instance, in today's anti-Bush tirade, they note:

Since the Globe first reported Bush's spotty attendance record in May 2000, no one has come forward with any credible recollection of having witnessed Bush performing guard service in Alabama or after he returned to Houston in 1973

Per Geraghty

"There is retired Lt. Col. John “Bill” Calhoun, unit's flight safety officer who told the Associated Press in February that he saw Bush “every drill period” ; Joe LeFevers, another member of the 187th, who told The Birmingham News that he remembered seeing Bush on base and remembered Bush because of his political job at the time on a U.S. Senate campaign; Joe Holcombe, who worked with Bush on the Blount campaign and told a local paper that he remembers Bush missing at least one campaign meeting because of his National Guard drills; James Anderson, who was a physician for the Montgomery-based 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, who recalls performing a routine examination on Bush at Dannelly Air National Guard base in 1972; and Emily Marks Curtis, who dated Bush while he worked on the 1972 Senate campaign of Winton "Red" Blount, and who told a local paper that Bush had talked of going to Guard duty on the weekends.

(Plus Bush’s dental records, which, the Kerry Spot concedes, only proves that Bush’s teeth were on base on January 6, 1973.)

Is there a particular reason that the Globe finds none of the above people a reliable witness?"

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Yes, well, we all know how good the reporting has been from the Globe as of late.

For instance, in today's anti-Bush tirade, they note:

Not for nothing, but I'm guessing that the Globe guys were focusing on the "with any credible recollection" part instead of just the "no one has come forward" part.

ETA: I see you've amended your point, OK. I've not gone through all of the people that NRO lists with such reverence, but I did like the "only the teeth were on base" part.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Gattigap
How do you figure the AP story refutes the Globe, exactly? Is the AP just paying penance for a few days?

Sorry, I was only dealing with the new stuff that was just released. Sounds like he was a pretty good troop.

As for the Globe stuff - this seems to me to be a rehash of what was discussed last time around. The big thing was, he was supposed to stay active and find a new unit, but he didn't - just like hundreds of others at that time, because Nam was being wound down, and people were not only not being called up, (which was what Bush and the others faced if they didn't continue), but they were releasing actives. There was no point. The military (as the article mentions) wasn't even enforcing those contracts. They were trying to downsize as it was.

What the Globe "discovered" (from docs released long ago) was two signed agreements containing the "I will find my new unit" statement. It's old news - that was the supposition ebhind the discussion anyway.

[SlaveNoMore]

bilmore
You want them to cancel Sixty Minutes?

NBC, not wanting to feel left out of the pile-on, has scheduled Kitty Kelley for Monday, Tuesday AND Wednesday next week*.

I guess there is a precedent, as they also gave her three days to trash the Reagans last time out.

*John O'Neill was hoping for Thursday and Friday, but, for some reason, they still haven't called

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Originally posted by bilmore
Here's what the new papers showed, according to the AP. (Damning stuff.)
...
Bush skipped a required medical exam that cost his pilot's status in August 1972.

A six-month historical record of his 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, also turned over to the AP on Tuesday, shows some of the training Bush missed with his colleagues during that time.

Significantly, it showed the unit joined a "24-hour active alert mission to safeguard against surprise attack" in the southern United State beginning on Oct. 6, 1972, a time when Bush did not report for duty, according to his pay records.

Kerry gets Purple Hearts he received in a war zone questioned but Bush's failure to fulfill his sole job in the military by skipping a physical during that same time is not "damning"?

You really should stick to the "he's got other qualifications for the job now" tack.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Not for nothing, but I'm guessing that the Globe guys were focusing on the "with any credible recollection" part instead of just the "no one has come forward" part.

I'm thinking their standards for this particular showing probably involve videotape, and affidavits by the Pope.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
NBC, not wanting to feel left out of the pile-on, has scheduled Kitty Kelley for Monday, Tuesday AND Wednesday next week*.

I guess there is a precedent, as they also gave her three days to trash the Reagans last time out.

*John O'Neill was hoping for Thursday and Friday, but, for some reason, they still haven't called

In fairness, though, most of the networks did spend countless minutes saying "we're certainly not going to dignify those Swift Boat Liars with coverage!"

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I'm not sure why either group is more credible than the other.

They aren't. That was my point. Both W. and Kerry have people lining up on both sides to say that they did or didn't do what they claimed they did. Neither has proven or disproven anything. It's all just a big shitbucket that needs to be dropped in favor of addressing the candidates' positions.