LawTalkers  

Go Back   LawTalkers > General Discussion > Politics

» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
» Online Users: 645
0 members and 645 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 4,499, 10-26-2015 at 08:55 AM.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2004, 12:32 AM   #3961
Gattigap
Southern charmer
 
Gattigap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: At the Great Altar of Passive Entertainment
Posts: 7,033
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Good point. He was following the law and not breaking it.
I think Rumsfeld has code word clearance. Reading a copy that he downloads, or (for that matter) glancing down at his "In" box and reading the report sitting there, probably wouldn't be illegal.
__________________
I'm done with nonsense here. --- H. Chinaski
Gattigap is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 12:52 AM   #3962
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 33,053
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Good point. He was following the law and not breaking it.

So where can you get this Taguba report online?
The Time piece said you could get it from FOX. Have you looked there?
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 01:37 AM   #3963
Not Me
Too Lazy to Google
 
Not Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The Time piece said you could get it from FOX. Have you looked there?
Duh, hello. Yeah, I did look at that site and I am very familiar with that site and I didn't see it. I searched it , too. I am on that site at least once a day and yet I have never seen the Taguba report on it. The Time article seems suspicious to me.
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
Not Me is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 01:38 AM   #3964
Not Me
Too Lazy to Google
 
Not Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
I think Rumsfeld has code word clearance. Reading a copy that he downloads, or (for that matter) glancing down at his "In" box and reading the report sitting there, probably wouldn't be illegal.
Thanks, Mr. Literal. It is not like I was joking or anything when I suggested that the Secretary of Defense wouldn't be allowed to view classified documents.
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
Not Me is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:19 AM   #3965
Shape Shifter
World Ruler
 
Shape Shifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
I think Rumsfeld has code word clearance. Reading a copy that he downloads, or (for that matter) glancing down at his "In" box and reading the report sitting there, probably wouldn't be illegal.
I wouldn't have thought it to be that complicated. I thought he worked for Fox News. Surely the report is on one of their shared drives.
__________________
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
Shape Shifter is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:23 AM   #3966
Shape Shifter
World Ruler
 
Shape Shifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Duh, hello. Yeah, I did look at that site and I am very familiar with that site and I didn't see it. I searched it , too. I am on that site at least once a day and yet I have never seen the Taguba report on it. The Time article seems suspicious to me.
Executive summary here.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001
__________________
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
Shape Shifter is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:27 AM   #3967
Gattigap
Southern charmer
 
Gattigap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: At the Great Altar of Passive Entertainment
Posts: 7,033
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Thanks, Mr. Literal. It is not like I was joking or anything when I suggested that the Secretary of Defense wouldn't be allowed to view classified documents.
Hey, I enjoy a nice shot of irony as much as the next guy, but let's be careful. At high concentrations, it'll bring down the boards again.

This is the closest we've come since Ty tried to post about a blog by James Volokh dissing Sy Hersh, and we all know what happened then.

Gattigap
__________________
I'm done with nonsense here. --- H. Chinaski
Gattigap is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:30 AM   #3968
Shape Shifter
World Ruler
 
Shape Shifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Duh, hello. Yeah, I did look at that site and I am very familiar with that site and I didn't see it. I searched it , too. I am on that site at least once a day and yet I have never seen the Taguba report on it. The Time article seems suspicious to me.
Interesting stuff. From the subversive msnbc.com post above:

5. (S) That between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF). The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. Due to the extremely sensitive nature of these photographs and videos, the ongoing CID investigation, and the potential for the criminal prosecution of several suspects, the photographic evidence is not included in the body of my investigation. The pictures and videos are available from the Criminal Investigative Command and the CTJF-7 prosecution team. In addition to the aforementioned crimes, there were also abuses committed by members of the 325th MI Battalion, 205th MI Brigade, and Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC). Specifically, on 24 November 2003, SPC Luciana Spencer, 205th MI Brigade, sought to degrade a detainee by having him strip and returned to cell naked. (ANNEXES 26 and 53)

6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

(ANNEXES 25 and 26)

7.(U) These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. In reaching my findings, I have carefully considered the pre-existing statements of the following witnesses and suspects (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) SPC Jeremy Sivits, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

b. (U) SPC Sabrina Harman, 372nd MP Company – Suspect

c. (U) SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

c. (U) PFC Lynndie R. England, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

d. (U) Adel Nakhla, Civilian Translator, Titan Corp., Assigned to the 205th MI Brigade- Suspect

(Names deleted)

. . .

10. (U) I find that contrary to the provision of AR 190-8, and the findings found in MG Ryder’s Report, Military Intelligence (MI) interrogators and Other US Government Agency’s (OGA) interrogators actively requested that MP guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses. Contrary to the findings of MG Ryder’s Report, I find that personnel assigned to the 372ndMP Company, 800th MP Brigade were directed to change facility procedures to “set the conditions” for MI interrogations. I find no direct evidence that MP personnel actually participated in those MI interrogations. (ANNEXES 19, 21, 25, and 26).
__________________
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
Shape Shifter is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:44 AM   #3969
Shape Shifter
World Ruler
 
Shape Shifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Executive summary here.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001
And I was wondering about W's incongruous use of the word "superb" when descrbing Rumsfeld. I guess he read his talking points.

"1. (U) The US Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID), led by COL Jerry Mocello, and a team of highly trained professional agents have done a superb job of investigating several complex and extremely disturbing incidents of detainee abuse at the Abu Ghraib Prison."
__________________
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
Shape Shifter is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:50 AM   #3970
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 33,053
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Duh, hello. Yeah, I did look at that site and I am very familiar with that site and I didn't see it. I searched it , too. I am on that site at least once a day and yet I have never seen the Taguba report on it. The Time article seems suspicious to me.
Well, speaking of "duh," I Googled "Taguba Report" and got this result. The first result is -- lo and behold! -- the text of the Taguba Report, with only some names redacted. Approximate time to find this? About 5.8 seconds.

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you are exceptionally dim or just a troll.
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 08:27 AM   #3971
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,129
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you are exceptionally dim or just a troll.
Funny. I'd always bought into "if you are one, you'll know one."
Live and learn.
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 10:27 AM   #3972
Secret_Agent_Man
Classified
 
Secret_Agent_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: You Never Know . . .
Posts: 4,266
Republicans Against Reading Free Speech

Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Where can you get the Taguba report online now?

It seems to me that what they were trying to do was to not influence potential witnesses by the information in the report. Just like you wouldn't want to give eye witnesses to a murder the investigation reports of the detectives on the case. It might influence them. During an investigation, you want witnesses to rely on what it is that they can remember, not what they have read in a report. Another reason not to have potential witnesses see a report like that is because it might help people to lie about what really happened. When they know what others have said, it is easier for them to make up believable stories to evade culpability.
It seems that ay to you, really? How many potential witnesses to the abuses at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq presently reside among the civilian and military population at the Pentagon or the headquarters of the CPA?

Your conclusion is absurd.

S_A_M
__________________
"Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace."

Voted Second Most Helpful Poster on the Politics Board.

Last edited by Secret_Agent_Man; 05-11-2004 at 11:24 AM..
Secret_Agent_Man is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 11:07 AM   #3973
Gattigap
Southern charmer
 
Gattigap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: At the Great Altar of Passive Entertainment
Posts: 7,033
Reps criticizing Reps

George Will calls for Rumsfeld to resign.

Um, I think. Like many Will opinion pieces, one must digest various literary and historical references, then print out the piece and hold it up against the light before discerning his true intentions.

Here, Will is hoping that Rumsfeld will come to this conclusion himself and resign. Either that, or he just wanted an excuse to quote DeGaulle again.

Gattigap
__________________
I'm done with nonsense here. --- H. Chinaski
Gattigap is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 11:30 AM   #3974
sgtclub
Serenity Now
 
sgtclub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Survivor Island
Posts: 7,007
Let's Remember, There are These Pictures Too

http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq.htm
sgtclub is offline  
Old 05-11-2004, 11:39 AM   #3975
Secret_Agent_Man
Classified
 
Secret_Agent_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: You Never Know . . .
Posts: 4,266
Reps criticizing Reps

Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
George Will calls for Rumsfeld to resign.

Gattigap
This portion of the column correctly points out the danger of conducting a policy which has, for political reasons, up to now essentially refused to admit to mistakes or punish failure.

"The first axiom is: When there is no penalty for failure, failures proliferate. Leave aside the question of who or what failed before Sept. 11, 2001. But who lost his or her job because the president's 2003 State of the Union address gave currency to a fraud -- the story of Iraq's attempting to buy uranium in Niger? Or because the primary and only sufficient reason for waging preemptive war -- weapons of mass destruction -- was largely spurious? Or because postwar planning, from failure to anticipate the initial looting to today's insufficient force levels, has been botched? Failures are multiplying because of choices for which no one seems accountable."

I can understand intellectually why the President has declined to fire Tenet (for example), and is unlikely to fire Rumsfeld or any senior General now, but (as I've said before -- as to the first one)I think that policy is a serious mistake.

S_A_M

P.S. "Who'd have thought that more naked pictures would come out of the Bush administration than the Clinton administration?"
-- Jay Leno, 5/10/04
__________________
"Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace."

Voted Second Most Helpful Poster on the Politics Board.
Secret_Agent_Man is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:18 PM.