Politics: A new beginning

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Never mind, Spalding Gray, got it. Was trying to remember a _____ Spalding. Maybe the tennis ball tsar. Did you ever read Impossible Vacation? A friend gave it to me, but I've never been moved to open it.[/i]

I've read everything he's ever written, and saw him read a few times. You will probably like him, even if you didn't like my other recommendation (Post Office).
His whole act is about being angst filled, zen, product of a strict New England yankee family, but looking for ways to deal. Later books showed him over the hump. I almost posted in reply to your notice post, not to worry because he wasn't suicide material. Turns out he tried in the last little bit. If he did its a loss of a really talented guy.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
If that is the case, and there was active genocidal activity that we knew about (or had strong reason to believe in) before we went, then I will partially concede the point. Though, that's not why they said we were going in.

I still, though, think there is a difference between going in to an area where there is a high level of active armed conflict and governmental etc. stuff is extremely unsettled and invading a sovereign nation.

(I have no idea whether the "sovereign nation" thingy makes sense or not but it sure sounds good, doesn't it?)

That is the case. Also, Bosnia/Serbia were also soveriegn and by all accounts, Milosovich (sp?) had pretty good control over his country as well. Germany was also sovereign and Hitler had pretty good control over the coutnry too.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
You'll find a lot of people saying that he killed one to two million over the last dozen years (forget about before that, since he was our ally). Here's how they get there:

Invasion of Kuwait and subsequent war: 100,000
(note that at the time the US said the number was much lower, since most of those who died in this war died in the US bombing campaign or, to a lesser degree, were Iraqi soldiers during the US invasion)

Suppression of Kurds: 100,000
This number seems to be used a lot, but I can't find where it comes from. Doesn't seem to be heavily disputed, and seems to be an estimate focused just on the 90s, not on what came before

Suppression of Shi'ites immediately post war in Kuwait: 100,000
This number seems to be drawn from thin air because all the other numbers above are 100,000; it is clear there are mass graves of hundreds of people from this period, but some say at most a couple thousand, others say 10 to 20 thousand, and the 100,000 number starts showing up when people are trying to get to 1 million

Iraqi dead in Iran - Iraq war -- 500,000
The numbers seem to go from 150,000 to 700,000, but a lot of people use 500,000; apparently Hussein threw this figure out a lot, but he was usually trying to say how evil the Iranians are so to build more war fever and may well have been overstating.

Then round up to 1 million, or, if you want to get to 2 million, assert 750,000 or more Iranians dead in the Iraq/Iran war and throw in a couple hundred thousand from pre 1990 and some estimate for the most recent war (has anyone heard an estimate from the US of numbers dead on the Iraqi side - I don't think we have an interest in seeing a big number here?)

[An interesting fact, simply noted as a data point, is that most of the deaths attributed to Saddam occurred as the direct result of a piece of metal fired from a US or Iranian weapon. And the most heinous activity, widespread killing of the Kurds, is activity we overlook in Turkey and positively condoned up to a point in time.]

I don't use the 2 million number. The 300,000 mass graves are enough for me.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
the main charecter, A butler, had worked for a Lord who wanted to appease the Germans.

The peer who is (or was) sympathetic with the Nazis has kind of become a stock figure in postwar British novels, esp. in the comic tradition of Wodehouse, Mitford, and Kingsley Amis. I'm thinking particularly of the bellicose brown-shirt in Wodehouse --- can't remember his name --- but it was really more a pastiche of aristocratic fondness for fascism rather than a depiction of a particular appeasement diplomat.

All I know about "Remains" is what I saw in the movie. And what I saw indicated it was probably better left as a book. I do recall something about the first boss --- the one before Christopher Reeve --- being disgraced because he'd picked the wrong side before the war started.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Germany was also sovereign and Hitler had pretty good control over the coutnry too.

I'm guessing Hank chinaski tribute, based upon spelling, at least.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I don't use the 2 million number. The 300,000 mass graves are enough for me.

So the State Department gives 250,000 as the number for Bosnia -- is that enough for you there?

And how many is the right number in Zaire, Liberia, Indonesia, or other locations?

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Also, Bosnia/Serbia were also soveriegn and by all accounts, Milosovich (sp?) had pretty good control over his country as well.

Milosevic may have had control over his country, but that's because his country was Serbia. There was a civil war in Bosnia. Bosnia and Serbia are two different places. The Bosnian Serbs were taking orders from SM (although he disclaimed any interaction with them) but they were only one part of the Bosnian conflict.

[SlaveNoMore]

1) The link to the ABC news story on Dean acting as character witness for his chief of security - who beat his wife for years, or

2) Gore to give speech tomorrow decrying global warming on the day predicted to be the coldest day in the Northeast in over a decade.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
So the State Department gives 250,000 as the number for Bosnia -- is that enough for you there?

And how many is the right number in Zaire, Liberia, Indonesia, or other locations?

Club, you're probably still billing. That's a good republican thing to do, let me handle this.

This whole conversation started with Larry trying to defend Dean's distinction that killings justified Bosnia, but not Iraq. We aren't questioning Bosnia, we're qustioning Dean's distinction. So Bosnia's killing numbers were on the order of 250K, which justified intervention.

Okay. Iraq is at least that, maybe as high as 2 million.
Resolved: Dean's distinction is normal given the abnormal way he thinks. Discuss.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I've read everything he's ever written, and saw him read a few times. You will probably like him, even if you didn't like my other recommendation (Post Office).
His whole act is about being angst filled, zen, product of a strict New England yankee family, but looking for ways to deal. Later books showed him over the hump. I almost posted in reply to your notice post, not to worry because he wasn't suicide material. Turns out he tried in the last little bit. If he did its a loss of a really talented guy.

I've seen him live a few times, and have read other stuff, just not Impossible_Vacation. The article in the SF Chronicle today suggested that he might have gone skiing, so I'm holding out for that.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I don't use the 2 million number. The 300,000 mass graves are enough for me.

What culpability do you assign to George H.W. Bush, Colin Powell, et al. for the Shi'ites killed after the Gulf War?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
What culpability do you assign to George H.W. Bush, Colin Powell, et al. for the Shi'ites killed after the Gulf War?

Club, you're probably still billing. That's a good republican thing to do; it's alcohol time here; let me handle this.

This whole conversation started with Larry trying to defend Dean's distinction that killings justified Bosnia, but not Iraq. We aren't questioning Bosnia, we're qustioning Dean's distinction. So Bosnia's killing numbers were on the order of 250K, which justified intervention.

Okay. Iraq is at least that, maybe as high as 2 million.
Resolved: Dean's distinction is normal given the abnormal way he thinks. Discuss.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Club, you're probably still billing. That's a good republican thing to do, let me handle this.

This whole conversation started with Larry trying to defend Dean's distinction that killings justified Bosnia, but not Iraq. We aren't questioning Bosnia, we're qustioning Dean's distinction. So Bosnia's killing numbers were on the order of 250K, which justified intervention.

Okay. Iraq is at least that, maybe as high as 2 million.
Resolved: Dean's distinction is normal given the abnormal way he thinks. Discuss.

Now support your numbers, guys. I just gave you the way folks get to 2 million, the biggest number I've seen. Most of those come from a war we were chearleaders for (Yeh! Get the Ayatollah!).

I think you'll get to a supportable number for the attrocities books of a very significant 100,000 -- certainly significant enough to justify intervention, but you're then going to have to look at where the intervention can/should have occurred, and discover the bulk of these attrocities were committed during the first Bush administration, either in the civil war in Kurdistan or in the slaughter of Shi'ites following our withdrawal. We, of course, are highly culpable in the slaughter of Shi'ites, since we encouraged the uprising.

And we didn't intervene in Kurdistan, in particular, because our leadership has viewed an independent Kurdistan as a destabilizing force, which is a crock of shit in my view. We are particularly nervous about Turkey having hostile powers on two sides.

So get those numbers together, boys.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

BTW, note criticism on Kurdistan extends to Clinton as well as both Bush administrations. See how nonpartisan some of us are!

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
That is the case. Also, Bosnia/Serbia were also soveriegn and by all accounts, Milosovich (sp?) had pretty good control over his country as well. Germany was also sovereign and Hitler had pretty good control over the coutnry too.

When we started fighting Hitler, we weren't fighting in Germany, smartass. We were fighting him in countries he'd recently taken over by military force.

Were the boundaries of Bosnia and Serbia really all that well-settled when we went over there? I'm really thinking not, and really really think that there was a tremendous amount of, um, dissent around the boundaries. Which pretty much amounted to an actual war going on. Which is qualitatively different from being a vicious dictator.

G^3, dear, your statistics are really nice and all but by saying "since the turn of the latest century" I was talking about since 2000 (or 2001, if you want to get technical about when the century started, though I don't know which one is technically correct come to think of it). Did you really think I was asking about the last 103 years?