A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
I don't really understand what you were trying to say, but under the threat from being expelled by the conservative club, I don't like the phrase "homicide bomber" either. It is simply less acurate than "suicide bomber". A homicide bomber is anyone that throws a hand grenade and kills someone. It is important to use the term suicide bomber because it demonstrates that someone was willing to throw away their own life to complete the act. Not being able to use the phrase like suicide bomber smacks of political correctness. Can you imagine how absurd it would be if we had to call Kamikazi pilots from WWII homicide pilots instead of suicide pilots - or their missions homicide mission and not suicide mission. I think people don't like to use the term suicide bomber because it shows these people have conviction. They may be misguided and have totally twisted reasoning, but people only sacrifice themselves for a cause if they have deep conviction. If we forget how deep their conviction is, we run the risk of understimating them, and you never want to underestimate your opponent. This reminds of when Bill Maher lost his show for saying that the pilots of the planes on 9-11 were not cowards. He was right. They were evil and twisted etc. but they were not cowards. Conservatives find political correctness scary because you can be branded a racist sexist, etc even for stating the facts. You should always be able to tell the truth. It is when the truth becomes dangerous to speak, that our civil liberties are most under threat. These people are suicide bombers and we just have to deal with the fact that these people believe so strongly for what they are doing that they are willing to sacrifice their lives.

You may not have understood the way I said it, but your response makes it clear that you completely understood exactly what I was saying.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore

Sweet.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
You may not have understood the way I said it, but your response makes it clear that you completely understood exactly what I was saying.

Fake but accurate?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
Fake but accurate?

No. The phrase represents a lame attempt to marginalize the fact that the killer is taking em's own life in addition to the lives of others. It's rather pathetic that those who use the phrase act as though they believe that their linguistic change will serve to erase the fact that the suicide bomber is (a) also a victim of the explosion and (b) that em's willingness to die for em's cause is actually the greater danger.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by taxwonk
You may not have understood the way I said it, but your response makes it clear that you completely understood exactly what I was saying.

Your comments went way over my head - I don't know who the "structuralists" are and I do not know what the "Iraq construct" is. So I guess I just got lucky.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by taxwonk
No. The phrase represents a lame attempt to marginalize the fact that the killer is taking em's own life in addition to the lives of others. It's rather pathetic that those who use the phrase act as though they believe that their linguistic change will serve to erase the fact that the suicide bomber is (a) also a victim of the explosion and (b) that em's willingness to die for em's cause is actually the greater danger.

I agree that "homicide bomber" is stupid, but I think an additional element in the argument is that, by calling it a "suicide" but not "homicide" bombing, it demphasizes the significance of the innocent life taken in favor of the bomber's. Sort of a half-baked "victims rights" thing - if anyone's "victim" status is to be linguistically marginalized, it should by rights be the bomber's, not the actual victims'.

That said - yeah, lame. You'd think that anti-bombers would want to emphasize the suicide element, since most religions hold that suicide is a mortal sin (or whatever the applicable description is that means "you are absolutely barred from heaven for it").

eta: though I would go so far as to refer to the suicide bomber as a "casualty" of the explosion, not a "victim."

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
No. The phrase represents a lame attempt to marginalize the fact that the killer is taking em's own life in addition to the lives of others.

Well, I was really only kidding with the "fake but accurate" response, but I will add here that the "homicide bomber" thingie wasn't so much an attempt to marginalize the suicide aspect of it, but to re-remind of the more important presence of the victims of such acts. To control the language is to control the thought, right? Yeah, they're suicide bombers, but that seems to equate it with a straight suicide - a burning bonze making a statement - whereas these suicides tend to also involve ten or fifty or one hundred twenty-four rather involuntary participants. It's without much substance, of course, but since when does that disqualify political effort?

(ETA - or, I could just wait for BRC to post.)

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Please. We don't have any hard-core right wingers, which make up a decent chunk of the country's midsection. We more reflect the political spectrum of the higher education system through which we've all been. Well, Hank excepted--he's still there.

I didn't mean "centrist" as in geography (????) and I didn't say we represented the spectrum. I mean we don't have anyone at either end. I think those leaning toward the left think some on the right are to the right of Rush and the crazy people who have stockpiled various weapons in their compounds, and those leaning toward the right think some on the left are redder than Marx, but really, no one here seems really out there (except trolls).

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I didn't mean "centrist" as in geography (????) and I didn't say we represented the spectrum. I mean we don't have anyone at either end. I think those leaning toward the left think some on the right are to the right of Rush and the crazy people who have stockpiled various weapons in their compounds, and those leaning toward the right think some on the left are redder than Marx, but really, no one here seems really out there (except trolls).

So, we're basically a varied collection of extreme centrists?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by bilmore
Well, I was really only kidding with the "fake but accurate" response, but I will add here that the "homicide bomber" thingie wasn't so much an attempt to marginalize the suicide aspect of it, but to re-remind of the more important presence of the victims of such acts. To control the language is to control the thought, right? Yeah, they're suicide bombers, but that seems to equate it with a straight suicide - a burning bonze making a statement - whereas these suicides tend to also involve ten or fifty or one hundred twenty-four rather involuntary participants. It's without much substance, of course, but since when does that disqualify political effort?

(ETA - or, I could just wait for BRC to post.)

To me the fact that they are called a bomber implies that people are going to be killed. I have not heard of many suicide bombers just going after things instead of people. As far as the victims being innocent, homicide does not clear that up. I empathize with the fact that these suicide bombers are going after innocent people instead of military targets. This is an important point in showing how heinous the crimes are, but the term homicide does not clear that up. A homicide bomber could go after innocent or military targets.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by bilmore
So, we're basically a varied collection of extreme centrists?

WTF, did you work all weekend and you think it's Friday? Did I say extreme centrists? Jesus fucking christ on a stick, I was just saying that it isn't just that we don't have anyone extremely right wing on here -- we also don't have anyone extremely left wing.

CHRIST. If only I had that secret service guy's pop-out baton, I'd sodomize you with it and then shove it down your throat, in hopes that the unpleasant experience of spewing real crap would keep you from spewing that kind of crap.

[Ferdinand de Saussure]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I would think that an intelligent guy like you would realize how incredibly stupid the phrase "homicide bomber" sounds. It's even more transparent and pathetic than "freedom fries."

It's stupid shit like this that makes me wonder if the structuralists weren't at least partly right. Because if they were, and if these examples are the best we can do to define the Iraq construct, we're fucked for generations.

As if there was ever any doubt.

[Ferdinand de Saussure]

Originally posted by Spanky
Your comments went way over my head - I don't know who the "structuralists" are and I do not know what the "Iraq construct" is. So I guess I just got lucky.

Linguistist fuck.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
CHRIST. If only I had that secret service guy's pop-out baton, I'd sodomize you with it and then shove it down your throat, in hopes that the unpleasant experience of spewing real crap would keep you from spewing that kind of crap.

Hang on baby -- Friday's coming.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I was just saying that it isn't just that we don't have anyone extremely right wing on here -- we also don't have anyone extremely left wing.

We seem to have folks who probably are core constituency dems, but not core constituency reps (at least current GOP). But maybe it's just perception.