Still Hating America. - Page 328

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy · 05-01-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
And that makes your self-delusion that either party holds anything close to the solution what exactly?

I'm at least willing to bet it all on the marketplace. I'd go with Uncle Milty all the way if I could. I actually believe people, if allowed to bahave as they would in a true marketplace, would do some remarkable things.

What do you believe? What's your solution? Barack's platitudes? Sheehan's aimless melodramatic posturing? Hill's universal health care?

Why don't you do three things. First, tell me what you'd do to fix things. Then, tell me which of the candidates would do what you want. Third, tell me - rationally - why I ought to buy into any ideology or candidate currently offered.

You get to see what I believe here whenever I show up. You are welcome to your 80s nihilism - it's certainly not as lunatic as the Hank/Penske ideological conservativism and much of the cynicism is healthy and well-deserved by the targets. The combination of the screw them all attitude with faith in the free market is a bit puzzling.

But it's still 80s nihilism.

sebastian_dangerfield · 05-01-2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
2.

You really think the govt stopped that? They just offshored it onto people we don't care about.

ETA: How did any of the immigrants who came to this country ever achieve any success without the New Deal and Great Society's assiatance?

sebastian_dangerfield · 05-01-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
The combination of the screw them all attitude with faith in the free market is a bit puzzling.

But it's still 80s nihilism.

1. How are they incompatible?

2. It's not nihilism. Nihilism is believing in nothing.

05-01-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
You really think the govt stopped that? They just offshored it onto people we don't care about.

They stopped it here. And, as I am constantly reminded when I point out that the US wages wars of choice on certain evil, murdering dictators but not others, we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Right?

But fuck all that -- I want to know where you're getting your incredible faith in the integrity, honesty and virtue of participants in a "true" free market. Is it Life Condiments Day today or something?

ETA: On your last point they died in their thousands from working conditions we wouldn't wish upon our worst enemies today. Go look up some life expectancy figures and spare me the Ronnie Regan anecdotal bullshit - "my grandparents owned a little grocery store on the Lower East Side . . . they came from nothing . . . "

Replaced_Texan · 05-01-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I read some of it, and some of Dawkins' "God Delusion." But when you were raised Catholic, they all ring repetitive - of so many thoughts you had so many years ago. If you didn't recognize the farce of organized religion before 12, you weren't paying attention or had already mastered internal suspension of disbelief.

2

Quote:

I believe there's some force that started everything in some cosmic sense we're not wired to understand, based on rational considerations (simply assuming as a matter of physics, something can't come from nothing). Whatever it is, it's not interested in us. That's where Harris annoys me. He seems to insist there's nothing, not even an energy running through the universe along the lines of what Druids or Native Americans "worshipped." I'd like to think there's some force beyond my comprehension...

And that it doesn't give a damn about me.

and 2.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy · 05-01-2007, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
It's not nihilism. Nihilism is believing in nothing.

Exactly.

Replaced_Texan · 05-01-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
1. How are they incompatible?

2. It's not nihilism. Nihilism is believing in nothing.

Say what you will about the tenants of national socialism.....at least its an ethos.

sebastian_dangerfield · 05-01-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
They stopped it here. And, as I am constantly reminded when I point out that the US wages wars of choice on certain evil, murdering dictators but not others, we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Right?

But fuck all that -- I want to know where you're getting your incredible faith in the integrity, honesty and virtue of participants in a "true" free market. Is it Life Condiments Day today or something?

ETA: On your last point they died in their thousands from working conditions we wouldn't wish upon our worst enemies today. Go look up some life expectancy figures and spare me the Ronnie Regan anecdotal bullshit - "my grandparents owned a little grocery store on the Lower East Side . . . they came from nothing . . . "

I'm not sparing you any of the Ronnie Reagan bullshit because that's the argument that shows the flaw in your position. My grandfather did work in the mines. He was an Eastern European immigrant, and his observation after one year or so of it was "These miners are fucking isiots." He then did what Darwin and the American Dream (or some permutation of that concept) required - he started a fucking business and worked like a dog.

He didn't go back to the mines. And he didn't cry for miners. The way the people of that age saw it, life was a winnowing process, and if you wanted to get ahead, you did it. The same way you and I took an economic risk and got law degrees.

Sure, child labor's different because the children don't have the ability to opt out. That's an evil that would occur in a free market and a regulated market, and there's little you could cite me to suggest it would re-emerge in modern day Amnerica but for regulation.

What's the option of having faith in a free market? Having faith in the govt? You don't suggest I have faith in the govt, do you?

Re the prefect v. good thing, I'll match you with the old saw about the road to hell being paved with a certain variety of intention. We're hopelessly overregulated and its screwing up our economy.

taxwonk · 05-01-2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
You really think the govt stopped that? They just offshored it onto people we don't care about.

ETA: How did any of the immigrants who came to this country ever achieve any success without the New Deal and Great Society's assiatance?

1. The Mob

2. Exploiting the group that came after them.

taxwonk · 05-01-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Say what you will about the tenants of national socialism.....at least its an ethos.

Was national socialism a slum lord, too?

Tyrone Slothrop · 05-01-2007, 01:57 PM

Passed along without comment:

At some point, politically sophisticated conservatives will have to recognize that no Republican can win in 2008 and that their only choice is to support the most conservative Democrat for the nomination. Call me crazy, but I think that person is Hillary Clinton.

Bruce Bartlett

Tyrone Slothrop · 05-01-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The way the people of that age saw it, life was a winnowing process, and if you wanted to get ahead, you did it.

My grandfather was born in the sticks, one of 15 kids, and was 18 when his father died. He was on his own. He worked hard his whole life and was proud of it. But that doesn't mean he thought life ought to be a "winnowing process." He once told me that the only two organizations that ever did anything for him in his life were the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and the Democratic Party, though I imagine he'd toss the BPOE in there if you asked.

Did he work hard to get ahead? Sure. Does that mean he thought an unregulated free market was a glorious thing? Of course not.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) · 05-01-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Passed along without comment:

At some point, politically sophisticated conservatives will have to recognize that no Republican can win in 2008 and that their only choice is to support the most conservative Democrat for the nomination. Call me crazy, but I think that person is Hillary Clinton.

Bruce Bartlett

Interesting point.

My question is whether if 2008 is a lost cause, a republican should vote for the D who would have the best or worst chance of holding the WH in 2012. Electing a centrist makes it harder for the Rs to win in 2012.

Not Bob · 05-01-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
You really think the govt stopped that? They just offshored it onto people we don't care about.

Wrong, sebby. At the time that child labor laws were passed, the US had a tarriff wall so high that the only thing that we imported were Eurpoean castles, brick by brick, for the robber barons and the Morgan partners who underwrote their bonds.

And, frankly, I'd rather rely on the USDA inspection process (flawed as it is, and run by your bete noirs the risk averse middle management parasites) to tell me that the Oscar Meyer weiner I had for lunch is safe. After reading The Jungle, I don't think that Adam Smith's invisible hand is all that clean.

Tyrone Slothrop · 05-01-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Electing a centrist makes it harder for the Rs to win in 2012.

On the margin, perhaps, but I would suggest that other factors -- competence -- will be more important after four years. A avowed lefty who does an excellent job as President would be harder to beat that a moderate who doesn't. E.g., Jimmy Carter.