Politics As Usual

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Remember that TV miniseries "V" from the early 1980s -- where the alien reptilian race disguised itself as an alien human-like race?

Coulter makes me think of the scene where that good-looking brunette commander ate a live mouse (thus revealing their nature to the viewers). Something about the eyes and the smile.

S_A_M

We're not claiming her. I wouldn't fuck Coulter with a Jack Tingley's dick.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

From a recent White House press briefing, evidence of the Bush administration's plan to appeal to Latino voters:

Q. Yes, two questions, please. From your statement at the podium, that Mr. Brahimi --

MR. McCLELLAN: Is the Spanish okay? (Laughter.)

Q. We can do it in Spanish.

Q. Yes, we could ask the question in Spanish.

Q. Bueno.

Q. Quien es mas macho, Jorge Bush, o Scott McClellan? (Laughter.)

[Not Me]

• SALEM -- A soldier initially listed as killed in action while riding in the same doomed convoy as former prisoner of war Jessica Lynch actually had been captured by Iraqi fighters before he was killed, the Oregon National Guard said Thursday.
  
  Walters "was held separately from his fellow soldiers and killed while in custody," said Guard spokesman Maj. Arnold Strong.
  
  The investigation announced Thursday revealed the fatal abuse of an American prisoner of war at the hands of Iraqis, Strong said.
  
  "He was executed -- shot twice in the back," Strong said Thursday. "An Iraqi ambulance driver witnessed six Fedayeen rebels standing outside a building guarding him while he was still alive. That same witness evacuated his dead body to a hospital."
  
  Defense investigators confirmed the account by matching Walters' DNA to a blood splatter on the wall where he was executed, Strong said. He died from two gunshot wounds to the back, fired from more than 20 feet away, according to Strong's account of the investigation findings.
  
  Empty gun magazines were found near where Walters was captured, suggesting he fired until ammunition ran out. Before his capture, he was shot in the leg and stabbed three times in the abdomen with a bayonet, Strong cited the report as saying.
  
  It was not clear whether Walters would have died from the bayonet wounds had he not been shot in captivity, Strong said.

http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/05/...gon/news04.txt

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Not Me

• SALEM -- A soldier initially listed as killed in action while riding in the same doomed convoy as former prisoner of war Jessica Lynch actually had been captured by Iraqi fighters before he was killed, the Oregon National Guard said Thursday.
  
  Walters "was held separately from his fellow soldiers and killed while in custody," said Guard spokesman Maj. Arnold Strong.
  
  The investigation announced Thursday revealed the fatal abuse of an American prisoner of war at the hands of Iraqis, Strong said.
  
  "He was executed -- shot twice in the back," Strong said Thursday. "An Iraqi ambulance driver witnessed six Fedayeen rebels standing outside a building guarding him while he was still alive. That same witness evacuated his dead body to a hospital."
  
  Defense investigators confirmed the account by matching Walters' DNA to a blood splatter on the wall where he was executed, Strong said. He died from two gunshot wounds to the back, fired from more than 20 feet away, according to Strong's account of the investigation findings.
  
  Empty gun magazines were found near where Walters was captured, suggesting he fired until ammunition ran out. Before his capture, he was shot in the leg and stabbed three times in the abdomen with a bayonet, Strong cited the report as saying.
  
  It was not clear whether Walters would have died from the bayonet wounds had he not been shot in captivity, Strong said.

http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/05/...gon/news04.txt

Shot in the leg and stabbed with a bayonet sounds like normal military fighting stuff. Believe it or not, people get hurt in fighting! Shot in the back of the head twice is not torture in the least. It's a generally a quick, merciful death. I'd rather be shot in the head than slowly suffocated while being kicked.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Not Me [list]SALEM -- A soldier initially listed as killed in action while riding in the same doomed convoy as former prisoner of war Jessica Lynch actually had been captured by Iraqi fighters before he was killed, the Oregon National Guard said Thursday.

No. It's murder, but not torture.

S_A_M

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
No. It's murder, but not torture.

S_A_M

Not giving medical attention to a POW with bayonet wounds to the abdomen and then shooting him in the back twice is torture AND murder. Go read the GC.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Not Me
Go read the GC.

Oh my Gawd.

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop

Only a matter of time before that Myopsid Squid starts clamoring for the franchise.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[cartoon]

Really, what right does any of us have to judge the consensual unions between loving adults? These people deserve equal protection under the law!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

All that torture? Turns out we didn't get much out of it.

• The questioning of hundreds of Iraqi prisoners last fall in the newly established interrogation center at Abu Ghraib prison yielded very little valuable intelligence, according to civilian and military officials.
  
  The interrogation center was set up in September to obtain better information about an insurgency in Iraq that was killing American soldiers almost every day by last fall. The insurgency was better organized and more vigorous than the United States had expected, prompting concern among generals and Pentagon officials who were unhappy with the flow of intelligence to combat units and to higher headquarters.
  
  But civilian and military intelligence officials, as well as top commanders with access to intelligence reports, now say they learned little about the insurgency from questioning inmates at the prison. Most of the prisoners held in the special cellblock that became the setting for the worst abuses at Abu Ghraib apparently were not linked to the insurgency, they said.
  
  All of the prisoners sent to Abu Ghraib had already been questioned by the troops who captured them for urgent information about roadside bombs, imminent attacks and the like.

NYT

So much for all those hypotheticals about terrorists who are about to set off nuclear bombs.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
All that [abuse]? Turns out we didn't get much out of it.

Which proves that higher ups didn't know about it and didn't condone it.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Not Me
Not giving medical attention to a POW with bayonet wounds to the abdomen and then shooting him in the back twice is torture AND murder. Go read the GC.

You are right. I think the adminstration responsible should be removed from office.

[SlaveNoMore]

A wholly different perspective on the Najaf situation from my friends at the WSJ editorial page:

"...As Mr. Bush noted, the U.S. military has been making progress against our enemies in Iraq. Fallujah is calm, at least for the moment. And yesterday U.S. forces agreed to stop offensive operations against Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi militia after having shredded the radical cleric's rebellion. In recent days the Army's 1st Armored Division has arrested his chief lieutenant and killed hundreds of his fighters with just one casualty of its own -- to the point that Mahdi militia had little safe refuge other than mosques.

More important for future stability, Mr. al-Sadr was defeated with the help of other Iraqi Shiites. Respected Shiite clerics, led by Grand Ayatollah Sistani, issued a remarkable statement blaming the violence squarely on the shoulders of the young renegade.

Three Shiite members of the Iraqi Governing Council negotiated the cease-fire, which will prevent further damage to holy sites in Najaf and elsewhere by requiring the Mahdi militia to disarm and depart. The U.S. will withdraw most of its troops as well, but it will still protect returning Iraqi police and government buildings and have free movement through the city. The U.S. was also careful not to disavow the outstanding warrant against Mr. al-Sadr, who needs to be arrested sooner or later. All in all, a big coalition victory...."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally written in the WSJ
Respected Shiite clerics, led by Grand Ayatollah Sistani, issued a remarkable statement blaming the violence squarely on the shoulders of the young renegade.

The WSJ leaves the impression that Sistanti et al. are on our side, but other sources give a more balanced assessment: "Reuters reports that .... Sistani had condemned both the Mahdi Army and the US military for fighting in the holy city." The NYT reports that we accepted the deal after Sistani threatened to speak out against us.

Meanwhile, "[s]ome Shiite leaders said they were discussing plans to offer the 31-year-old Mr. Sadr or people around him positions in the caretaker government taking over June 30, when the Americans will have less legal control. It was unclear whether the Americans knew of those discussions." Unclear whether the WSJ knows about this either, but they probably read the NYT.

Originally written in the WSJ
"[T]he cease-fire ... will prevent further damage to holy sites in Najaf and elsewhere by requiring the Mahdi militia to disarm and depart."

Will it also require them to say they're sorry? Read the NYT and you will find out that: "Though the agreement called for Mahdi fighters from outside Najaf to leave the city, there was little indication that anyone was makingthat distinction. "We have not seen any exodus of militia from the city," said Brig. Gen. Mark P. Hertling of the First Armored Division."

Presumably they'll leave the city when we catch the Fallujah killers and OJ tracks down Nicole's killer.

Originally written in the WSJ
All in all, a big coalition victory...."

Do you read the WSJ, and the excerpts of Bush's comments of April 13 that I posted, and not see any tension between the two? Like, these concessions:

• Allowing the Mahdi Army to continue intact, as long as it remains off the streets, is a major concession to Mr. Sadr. In another, Iraqi officials agreed to "suspend" the arrest warrant for him that cites his suspected involvement in the murder of a rival cleric in April 2003. That represents, at least for now, a reversal for the Americans, who have said repeatedly that they intend to "kill or capture" Mr. Sadr and "destroy" the Mahdi Army.

Of course, you have to go to the NYT to find this out.


I'll bet Sadr is declaring victory, too. Most agreements are win-win situations.*

*Club's exception for poor African prostitutes would not seem to apply here.

eta: Just to be clear -- I'm not saying that the deal in Najaf is a bad one. I'm just struck and bothered by the gulf between Bush's public statements and what's happening on the ground. If a Democratic president struck this deal, the WSJ would surely accuse him of negotiating with terrorists.