Making Baby Jesus Cry

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Okay, But that's like not drafting someone we should have. Clinton let the inspectors be kicked out. All the dead so far are his.

Naw, sorry. The dead are all Herbert Walker's, and until Iraq becomes a shining beacon of light for democracy, freedom and unencumbered capital markets from Damascus to Islamabad, every other death become a shaming by Bush the younger of his dad.

This analysis also pushes all of the Vietnam dead onto Johnson, of course, which I recognize provides only slight solace to your loss of lumping them on Carter. Sorry.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Sheehan's protest may well not materialize into anything larger (and AFAIK, probably won't). But while it's around, the Administration has to put up with more prominent stories of the persistent toll of deaths in Iraq. .

You could take any two year period in the 1980s and the murder rate in the Democratically controlled cities of New York, Washington, and Detroit et al. were higher than the death tolls of US and allied forces in Iraq in the last two years. Where were all the liberal protestors then? The only time the liberals care enough to protest is in furtherance of bringing down our Republic, not in strengthening it or supporting our security. Sad.

Originally posted by Gattigap

No. What I'm objecting to is the Penske's vilification of people who disagree with the Administration.

I am villifying the liberal inteligentsia which is abusing an emotionally distraught and mentally ill woman for its base partisan purposes, which purposes the American public has already given a thumbs down to at the ballot box.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Right, because as soon as the inspectors were out, SH was able to reinvigorate his nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons capabilities and start all those al-Queda training camps.

Fucking idiot.

1 The last post is as disturbing as any photo. I demand it be deleted.

2 Shouldn't we have assumed he had some reason for kicking them out?

3 Everyone assumed the reason he kicked them out was to CONTINUE, not resume, those activities. You've lost this argument a dozen times already- how short is your memory?

Now given that everyone assumed that is why they were kicked out the only question is, what do we do about it? Clinton make the choice of doing nothing. After 9/11 Bush could have continued Clinton's course or forced the issue.

I'm comfortable with who's the idiot in this debate.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Thanks. One clarification, I am not being gratuitously disparaging of Sheehan. I stand by an objective analysis that if you watch her on the news and observe her affectations and if you have any experience in mental healthcare, the conclusion is inescapable that she is mentally ill.

It's good that you're placing your TV diagnostic skills honed during the Schiavo episode to good use.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Naw, sorry. The dead are all Herbert Walker's, and until Iraq becomes a shining beacon of light for democracy, freedom and unencumbered capital markets from Damascus to Islamabad, every other death become a shaming by Bush the younger of his dad.
.

Bush I bears a significant responsibility for his failure to fully prosecute the war effourt in the early 90s. Thankfully the apple fell away from the tree with W.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Gattigap
It's good that you're placing your TV diagnostic skills honed during the Schiavo episode to good use.

Schiavo required a use of my skilled nursing experience, not my mental healthcare experience. Apples and oranges.

eta: for Board cred purposes: and not that I don't have ample experience in both areas, but in one I have substantially more.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
1 The last post is as disturbing as any photo. I demand it be deleted.

2 Shouldn't we have assumed he had some reason for kicking them out?

3 Everyone assumed the reason he kicked them out was to CONTINUE, not resume, those activities. You've lost this argument a dozen times already- how short is your memory?

Now given that everyone assumed that is why they were kicked out the only question is, what do we do about it? Clinton make the choice of doing nothing. After 9/11 Bush could have continued Clinton's course or forced the issue.

I'm comfortable with who's the idiot in this debate.

First of all, :love:

It is well established that SH kicked out the inspectors because we were using them to spy and sharing our intel with Israel. Regardless of how many people he dropped into plastic shredders, you really can't blame him for that.

What did SH have to do with 9/11 again?

Fucking fuck.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Schiavo required a use of my skilled nursing experience, not my mental healthcare experience. Apples and oranges.

eta: for Board cred purposes: and not that I don't have ample experience in both areas, but in one I have substantially more.

And clearly, you were correct -- as has been described elsewhere, we eventually learned that she was only one Pilates class away from the cast of "Stomp."

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
First of all, :love:

It is well established that SH kicked out the inspectors because we were using them to spy and sharing our intel with Israel. Regardless of how many people he dropped into plastic shredders, you really can't blame him for that.

You realize we're on the same side as our spies?

What did SH have to do with 9/11 again?

Dim- We're trying to change our response to terrorism from the Clinton model- Clinton would wait until we were attacked then do nothing, Bush is trying to prevent attacks or minimize them if they occur. Leaving Iraq as a potential stockyard for WMD was not an option as true leader who cared for his people could accept.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
This is a big who gives a shit in the same way that what my-flag-waving-no-english-speaking-penniless-swarthy-immigrant-grandparents-who-came-over-to-Ellis-Island-at-the-turn-of-the-19th-century-and-then-proudly supported-4-of-their-sons-going-to-war-in-the-40s-and-50s-to-defend-freedom-and-the-noble-causes-of-their-adopted-homeland blah blah blah think or feel doesn't make a fucking rat's arse worth of difference to national security policy.

W has made hard decisions in our national defence. We had a referundum on his performance. The hate America crowd lost the referendum. Whether or not W's kids serve in the military is irrelevant to any of it.

Sometimes I forget that you are so full of shit even when you are not playing your schtick. A few points.

(1) If the war in Iraq is so damn vitally important, it's it's fair for those whose kids are over there to ask why the kids of the Beltway elite (and I am including Her Imperial Majesty the senior senator from the Empire State in this one) aren't actually serving.

(2) Arguing (as slave does) that it isn't a conscript war, and that the troops over there are all volunteers, is a fair statement. Nonetheless, one could argue that ifIraq is worth the risk to the life of a kid of a mechanic from Skokie, then it's worth the risk to a kid of a senator or president. Even more so.

(3) If the war is so important, and yet smaller in scale than WWII, then it should be that much easier to get it right. We don't have to shut down Detroit like we did in 1940, but we could have probably gotten more factories to make things like armored Humvess and kevlar and ceramic plates sooner rather than later. We built the largest and most powerful navy in the world virtually from scratch in 2 1/2 years after Pearl Harbor, at the same time that we build an airforce and mechanized army from scratch. Are you telling me that we can't build a couple thousand Humvees in that same time?

(4) When we occupied Germany and Japan after the active fighting ended, we had swarms of engineers and civil affairs troops rebuilding those countries. We had thousands of people go through intensive language training, and we took advantage of the second generation German and Japanese speakers. When Saddam fell, we didn't have enough troops in country to secure the place. Four years after 9/11, how many Arabic speakers have been trained? Why are we expecting infantrymen and combat marines, the vast majority who don't speak Arabic, to win the hearts and minds of Iraqi civilians? They are trained for combat, not occupation.

(5) When refugees poured into England after Hitler conquered France, the British (and later U.S.) military began training and equipping volunteers, and within a relatively short period of time, Free French and Polish units were fighting effectively and independently at regimental and divisional levels in North Africa, Italy, and France. After several years of occupation, how many Iraqi self-defense units (or whatever they are called) are currently operating at all, much less independently?

(6) Oh, and slave, the kids aren't collecting scrap and planting Victory Gardens because no one asked them to. No mobilizing the Home Front in this war, because I guess it isn't big enough.

Ooops. I forgot. We had a referendum last year, and so we all have to content ourselves by singing songs praising our Noble Leader until 2008.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
First of all, :love:

It is well established that SH kicked out the inspectors because we were using them to spy and sharing our intel with Israel. Regardless of how many people he dropped into plastic shredders, you really can't blame him for that.

What did SH have to do with 9/11 again?

He was part of the greater terrorist conspiracy. He gave money, other aid, and safe harbour to terrorists who were directly or indirectly linked to Al Qaeda. It is all part of one big whole. Wake up.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Gattigap
And clearly, you were correct -- as has been described elsewhere, we eventually learned that she was only one Pilates class away from the cast of "Stomp."

Ah, the usual disrespect for Terri Schiavo. It's not enough that the liberals teamed up with the nanny-state imperial judiciary to kill her, but you have to defile her life too. Classy.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
what markets? because the payor and the consumer aren't usually the same person. It's like a giant summer program for health care spending--yeah, i'll have an appetizer, surf n turf, and dessert. not my dime.

Many people think the market design is screwed up. As always, RT has my proxy.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Sheehan's protest may well not materialize into anything larger (and AFAIK, probably won't). But while it's around, the Administration has to put up with more prominent stories of the persistent toll of deaths in Iraq. I think that's making them uncomfortable, and they're struggling with a solution to make the woman go away. That's the "corner" I'm referring to. Politically, they could've and should've heard the woman out, commiserate, then publicly reaffirm steadfastness. Sheehan could've continued to complain, but it would be much harder for her to gain traction with that instead of some perception that Bush is refusing to meet with her.

No. What I'm objecting to is the Penske's vilification of people who disagree with the Administration.

Let me start with what I'm about to say with the following: The loss of even a single troop in battle is a horrific event, and we all should be eternally gratefull that there are men and women brave and selfless enough to take on the responsibility of war on our behalfs.

However, the initial predictions of loss of live that would result from the initial invasion were 3,000 to 10,000. Given all that has happened in the last 2.5 years, I think we are doing remarkably well in Iraq. The death toll, IMO, is only an issue for those that want to use anything they can against a president they don't like.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Sometimes I forget that you are so full of shit even when you are not playing your schtick. A few points.

(1) If the war in Iraq is so damn vitally important, it's it's fair for those whose kids are over there to ask why the kids of the Beltway elite (and I am including Her Imperial Majesty the senior senator from the Empire State in this one) aren't actually serving.

(2) Arguing (as slave does) that it isn't a conscript war, and that the troops over there are all volunteers, is a fair statement. Nonetheless, one could argue that ifIraq is worth the risk to the life of a kid of a mechanic from Skokie, then it's worth the risk to a kid of a senator or president. Even more so.
.

Nice politics of personal destruction in the intro. The Clintons have taught you well.

As for #1 and #2, I don't hear the soldiers complaining. Its a few Soros funded cranks. When Casey Sheehan rises from the dead and makes the complaint it will have more resonance. When a shrill shreiking mentally ill partisan funded nut makes the argument its a big "so what".

Further, I made the point earlier, I would be favour of a no-exemption conscription.

Originally posted by Not Bob


(3) If the war is so important, and yet smaller in scale than WWII, then it should be that much easier to get it right. We don't have to shut down Detroit like we did in 1940, but we could have probably gotten more factories to make things like armored Humvess and kevlar and ceramic plates sooner rather than later. We built the largest and most powerful navy in the world virtually from scratch in 2 1/2 years after Pearl Harbor, at the same time that we build an airforce and mechanized army from scratch. Are you telling me that we can't build a couple thousand Humvees in that same time?

(4) When we occupied Germany and Japan after the active fighting ended, we had swarms of engineers and civil affairs troops rebuilding those countries. We had thousands of people go through intensive language training, and we took advantage of the second generation German and Japanese speakers. When Saddam fell, we didn't have enough troops in country to secure the place. Four years after 9/11, how many Arabic speakers have been trained? Why are we expecting infantrymen and combat marines, the vast majority who don't speak Arabic, to win the hearts and minds of Iraqi civilians? They are trained for combat, not occupation.

(5) When refugees poured into England after Hitler conquered France, the British (and later U.S.) military began training and equipping volunteers, and within a relatively short period of time, Free French and Polish units were fighting effectively and independently at regimental and divisional levels in North Africa, Italy, and France. After several years of occupation, how many Iraqi self-defense units (or whatever they are called) are currently operating at all, much less independently?

(6) Oh, and slave, the kids aren't collecting scrap and planting Victory Gardens because no one asked them to. No mobilizing the Home Front in this war, because I guess it isn't big enough.

Ooops. I forgot. We had a referendum last year, and so we all have to content ourselves by singing songs praising our Noble Leader until 2008.

The effourt isn't perfect and comparing WWII to Iraq is apples and oranges. Either way its hard work and the Administration is there on the front lines doing the hard work day in and day out. When Iraq is a stable democracy I hope the liberals have the decency to apologize and then take their sorry arses over to the Islamic Republic of France with the rest of the cowardly dissenters.