Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck. - Page 93

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy · 10-06-2004, 01:01 AM

Interesting summaries on several stations. It looks like Cheney didn't win points with generally well executed slams on Edwards' record, as well as Kerry's record - no one trusts him any more.

Most stations seem to be calling it for Edwards.

My take: Edwards was more likeable, Cheney won more debating points, and VP debates are about likeability. But most importantly, Cheney had such a smug attitude that it all just came across as masterful spin - so I say Cheney beat himself in this debate. He came into the debate with high negatives, and confirmed them.

Worse news for Bush: this flip-flop thing has become a joke, and that was Plan B.

Replaced_Texan · 10-06-2004, 01:07 AM

What the hell happened to Andrew Sullivan?

Quote:

IN BRIEF: Boy was I ever wrong. If last Thursday night's debate was an assisted suicide for president Bush, this debate - just concluded - was a car wreck. And Cheney was road-kill. There were times when it was so overwhelming a debate victory for Edwards that I had to look away. I have to do C-SPAN now, but stay tuned for more post-debate blogging in a little while.

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index....03175360075422

SlaveNoMore · 10-06-2004, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Say_hello_for_me
Exactly right. Matthew's (Matthews'?) entire tone as a liberal journalist on MSNBC is one of the conciliatory vanquished foe of Cheney. His analogy (or that of one of his guests which he accepted) for the "I never met you" 90 second summary of Edwards' record was of a principal calling a school boy in and saying "you son, will have to go to summer school just to advance to the next grade, and even that's not guaranteed". Which is to say, MSNBC's biased journalist is clearly sounding like he heard what I heard and came away with the same overall impression. MSNBC's viewers clearly were being led by the nose if they came away thinking Edwards won.

Courtesy of Geraghty :

ABC News' Poll Shows 43 percent think Vice President Cheney won debate, only 35 percent think Edwards won. (ABC's "Special Coverage," 10/5/04)

NBC's Tom Brokaw: "Dick Cheney Reminded Me Of George Foreman, Kind Of A Slow Gait, But A Powerful Right-Hand When He Unleashed It In A Number Of Areas As He Went After The Kerry-Edwards Ticket." (NBC's "Special Coverage," 10/5/04)

MSNBC's Ron Reagan: "This Time, I Think The Chattering Classes, And I Include All Of Us Among Them, Will Come Out On The Side Of There Was A Stature Gap There, And It Was To Cheney's Advantage." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)

MSNBC's Chris Matthews Calls The Debate Between Vice President Cheney The "Howitzer" And Senator John Edwards The "Water Pistol." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/05/04)

MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell: "I Think Dick Cheney Did Awfully Well, At, First Of All, Putting John Edwards In His Place. Saying That I Have Been Presiding Over The Senate, And I Didn't Meet You Until Tonight. Talking About His Not Having Been On The Job Was Pretty Devastating." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)

MSNBC's Joe Scarborough: "I Tell You, Tonight, No Doubt About It, Edwards Got Obliterated By Dick Cheney. This Is The Most Surprising Part. This Debate Actually Turned In Cheney's Direction When They Started Talking About Domestic Issues. I Thought Cheney Handled The Foreign Policy Issues Very Well." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)

SlaveNoMore · 10-06-2004, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Most stations seem to be calling it for Edwards.

Other than Sullivan, Alan Colmes and the DNC, who, pray tell, are you talking about?

Seriously. Who?

Say_hello_for_me · 10-06-2004, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man

Edwards showed strong (and, I think better than Cheney) on the domestic policy questions. I'd give him the edge for the second half of the debate.
S_A_M

I still think one of the R's could use a cheerleader speech in these debates. Something like:

Americans have never shirked from sacrifice, whether we as a nation stand alone or with friends. For the better part of the last century, we have always provided a disproportionate amount of aid to our friends and those who seek freedom overseas. The Senators are now suggesting that their friends in France will do something more, something that would require the French to double their defense spending and offset such sacrificial spending by cutting some part of their welfare budget to pay for it. Perhaps the Senators should get the French to agree to this, before telling telling those of us old enough to remember the last time the French helped, that the French are ready to help again. Until then, the Senators are suggesting that they can promise something that Old Europe can't deliver. Namely, sacrifice. And its not nice to make promises that someone else will have to deliver, though that is the basis of the Senators' beliefs.

Its partly hyperbole, and I'm sure nobody wants to single out the French, but I think there is a way to get the point across that there is no way we get any significant amount of help from any other large democracy besides England.

Hello

Replaced_Texan · 10-06-2004, 01:15 AM

From a friend's blog (she's linked to me, so I'm not attributing her URL, you're going to have to take my word for it):

Quote:

During the debate, Cheney sent people to "factcheck.com" to find out how his record with Halliburton.

1. He meant factcheck.org. Which, btw, currently features headlines all about Bush distorting the facts.

2. During the debate (I checked) factcheck.com was one of those portal type advertising sites. Now? The URL has been bought and it directs people to a George Soros site that is filled with plenty of "Why Bush shouldn't be re-elected" info.

Atticus Grinch · 10-06-2004, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The reason why you don't see the relevance is the same reason why you deserve to be shot.

You see the weak sauce shit I have to put up with? Even Ammiano's funnier than you.

Tyrone Slothrop · 10-06-2004, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Courtesy of Geraghty :

ABC News' Poll Shows 43 percent think Vice President Cheney won debate, only 35 percent think Edwards won. (ABC's "Special Coverage," 10/5/04)

NBC's Tom Brokaw: "Dick Cheney Reminded Me Of George Foreman, Kind Of A Slow Gait, But A Powerful Right-Hand When He Unleashed It In A Number Of Areas As He Went After The Kerry-Edwards Ticket." (NBC's "Special Coverage," 10/5/04)

MSNBC's Ron Reagan: "This Time, I Think The Chattering Classes, And I Include All Of Us Among Them, Will Come Out On The Side Of There Was A Stature Gap There, And It Was To Cheney's Advantage." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)

MSNBC's Chris Matthews Calls The Debate Between Vice President Cheney The "Howitzer" And Senator John Edwards The "Water Pistol." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/05/04)

MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell: "I Think Dick Cheney Did Awfully Well, At, First Of All, Putting John Edwards In His Place. Saying That I Have Been Presiding Over The Senate, And I Didn't Meet You Until Tonight. Talking About His Not Having Been On The Job Was Pretty Devastating." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)

MSNBC's Joe Scarborough: "I Tell You, Tonight, No Doubt About It, Edwards Got Obliterated By Dick Cheney. This Is The Most Surprising Part. This Debate Actually Turned In Cheney's Direction When They Started Talking About Domestic Issues. I Thought Cheney Handled The Foreign Policy Issues Very Well." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)

Well, if a former GOP Congressman like Scarborough says Cheney won, that seals it, huh?

The selection of quotes here is (of course) one-sided. I was actually watching Brokaw on NBC, and he said equally nice things about Edwards, as I recall.

sgtclub · 10-06-2004, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Well, if a former GOP Congressman like Scarborough says Cheney won, that seals it, huh?

The selection of quotes here is (of course) one-sided. I was actually watching Brokaw on NBC, and he said equally nice things about Edwards, as I recall.

I thought that Edwards did better than expected, but the whole time I kept thinking that I could see Cheney as president (which isn't all that hard to imagine, given that he probably actually is). Edwards, on the other hand, is not ready. He is a likeable lightweight, who seems to be a nice, honest guy, with a great story, but he just doesn't fit the bill.

I think the big loser in this debate was Bush. Cheney made him look really bad.

Tyrone Slothrop · 10-06-2004, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I thought that Edwards did better than expected, but the whole time I kept thinking that I could see Cheney as president (which isn't all that hard to imagine, given that he probably actually is). Edwards, on the other hand, is not ready. He is a likeable lightweight, who seems to be a nice, honest guy, with a great story, but he just doesn't fit the bill.

I think the big loser in this debate was Bush. Cheney made him look really bad.

I doubt that many voters make their decision in November on the basis of the vice presidential candidate. Bentsen's ticket lost to Quayle's. So the debate was more important for the way that the substance fit into the ongoing themes each side is pushing, and for the stories it will feed. The attacks on Edwards' heft, or lack thereof, were inevitable, but won't hurt him much. OTOH, Cheney's problems with the facts and the truth are going to hurt over the next few days. For example, the idea that he never linked Hussein and 9/11 is going to be scrutinized.

ltl/fb · 10-06-2004, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Well, if a former GOP Congressman like Scarborough says Cheney won, that seals it, huh?

The selection of quotes here is (of course) one-sided. I was actually watching Brokaw on NBC, and he said equally nice things about Edwards, as I recall.

Lawtalkers' ltl/fb: "What I Don't Understand Is Why The Weird Capitalizing On All Those Quotes. But I Neither Watched Nor Listened To The Debate, So For All I Know It Is Based On That" (Lawtalkers' "Politics Board," 10/5/04)

ltl/fb · 10-06-2004, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Compare and contrast

W. Stands for Women

vs.

JohnKerry.com's section on women's issues

Honest to god, I thought that the "W Stands For Women" page was a satire. Can someone confirm that, for true, georgewbush.com is not a satire site? Thanks.

Shape Shifter · 10-06-2004, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Honest to god, I thought that the "W Stands For Women" page was a satire. Can someone confirm that, for true, georgewbush.com is not a satire site? Thanks.

Where's the satire? Obviously, women exist to have children, all of whom will die if Kerry is elected (because Kerry hates America). This is grown folks business. Don't worry your purty little head about it.

sgtclub · 10-06-2004, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I doubt that many voters make their decision in November on the basis of the vice presidential candidate. Bentsen's ticket lost to Quayle's. So the debate was more important for the way that the substance fit into the ongoing themes each side is pushing, and for the stories it will feed. The attacks on Edwards' heft, or lack thereof, were inevitable, but won't hurt him much. OTOH, Cheney's problems with the facts and the truth are going to hurt over the next few days. For example, the idea that he never linked Hussein and 9/11 is going to be scrutinized.

I don't disagree that the VP debate makes little if any difference.

Atticus Grinch · 10-06-2004, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Honest to god, I thought that the "W Stands For Women" page was a satire. Can someone confirm that, for true, georgewbush.com is not a satire site? Thanks.

Maybe the website was faked, but I believe it was accurate.