Politics As Usual

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
"Lied" is a poor shorthand for reckless disregard for the truth. Go back to those quotes I posted from the Woodward book. On Friday, General Myers tells Bush that they've been looking for WMD in Iraq for 10 years and they haven't found any. On Sunday, Bush stands in front of reporters and says, "Hussein has weapons of mass destruction." What was he thinking? I don't rightly now.

What "we" was looking.

I knew the inspectors hadn't found anything. You knew that, right?

If someone had asked "do you think covert inspections had been done that did discover WMDs?" I would have said no, because they would have been publicized.

So me, thinking US citizen, heard Bush to say "we knew he had the weapons, we can't see that he got rid of them, so we assume he has them." The inspectors hadn't found any, sure, but that seemed part of the game. Not even you can claim the inspections were allowed to operate as necessary, can you Ty?

Blix has said he was sure we'd find some when we invaded and the UN kept the Sanctions in place, apparently because it assumed they were there.

Bottom line,
1 everyone knew "we hadn't found them in 10 years."
2 everyone assumed he had them
3 Bush wasn't willing to run that risk
4 I would have been angry if he was willing to run the risk

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What "we" was looking. I knew the inspectors hadn't found anything. You knew that, right? If someone had asked "do you think covert inspections had been done that did discover WMDs?"
I would have said no, because they would have been publicized.

So me, thinking US citizen, heard Bush to say "we knew he had the weapons, we can't see that he got rid of them, so we assume he has them." The inspectors hadn't found any sure, but that seemed part of the game. Blix has said he was sure we'd find some when we invaded and the UN kept the Sanctions in place, apparently because it assumed they were there.

Bottom line,
1 everyone knew "we hadn't found them."
2 everyone assumed he had them
3 Bush wasn't willing to run that risk
4 I would have been angry if he was willing to run the risk

Assuming your 3, and yet Bush didn't want to tell the truth -- that he didn't have hard evidence of WMD but didn't want to run the risk -- and so he told people a different story -- that we knew Iraq had WMD. Perhaps he thought he was doing the right thing -- the ends (defending the country against the risk presented by Hussein) justified the means (telling mistruths to rally public support).

If you believe he was right, then stop pretending that he told the truth, and argue that the President should be lying to the public if he thinks he needs to do so.

The President isn't "everyone." The President presides over the best intelligence apparatus in the world.

There is a big difference between the President saying

• there is a 20% chance that Hussein has WMD and we should invade him to protect ourselves against that risk, and
• there is a 20% chance that Hussein has WMD, but I'm telling you that it's 100% because I don't trust the public to agree with me that a 20% chance is enough to justify an invasion

The difference is pretty fundamental to living in a democracy. If conservatives can't understand this, maybe that's part of the problem with our efforts to introduce democracy to Iraq.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
and what we have done in Iraq is strengthening those who did.

This is tossed-off all the time, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument WHY it is true.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
The President isn't "everyone." The President presides over the best intelligence apparatus in the world.

The Mossad? Et tu, Tyrone, with the Zionist conspiracy?*

* joke alert

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
This is tossed-off all the time, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument WHY it is true.

Ask Not Me for an explanation of why cameras should not be allowed in Iraqi prisons.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
The Mossad? Et tu, Tyrone, with the Zionist conspiracy?

I was talking about the Iranians.*

* joke alert

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
Ask Not Me for an explanation of why cameras should not be allowed in Iraqi prisons.

So, in essence, our safety is based on an "angry Muslim" numbers game?

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
So, in essence, our safety is based on an "angry Muslim" numbers game?

What "numbers game?" Is it a good thing to have more radicalized US-hating Iraqis and Muslims than less? Or are you someone who believes that every Muslim has had it in for us since day one anyway, so the occupation can't make the situation any worse?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Assuming your 3, and yet Bush didn't want to tell the truth -- that he didn't have hard evidence of WMD but didn't want to run the risk -- and so he told people a different story -- that we knew Iraq had WMD. Perhaps he thought he was doing the right thing -- the ends (defending the country against the risk presented by Hussein) justified the means (telling mistruths to rally public support).

If you believe he was right, then stop pretending that he told the truth, and argue that the President should be lying to the public if he thinks he needs to do so.

The President isn't "everyone." The President presides over the best intelligence apparatus in the world.

There is a big difference between the President saying

• there is a 20% chance that Hussein has WMD and we should invade him to protect ourselves against that risk, and
• there is a 20% chance that Hussein has WMD, but I'm telling you that it's 100% because I don't trust the public to agree with me that a 20% chance is enough to justify an invasion

The difference is pretty fundamental to living in a democracy. If conservatives can't understand this, maybe that's part of the problem with our efforts to introduce democracy to Iraq.

Well Ty, #1 and 2 are also true, and sort of important in breaking down your puffing theory, but oklay.
so you're asking me to pretend that 1 and 2 aren't also part of the "truth," and pretend that Bush choose to deceive because he was brave. Okay.
Do i need to assume anything about Russian submarines in the waters off the coast?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
So, in essence, our safety is based on an "angry Muslim" numbers game?

Did we win the Cold War by killing Russians?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Well Ty, #1 and 2 are also true, and sort of important in breaking down your puffing theory, but oklay.
so you're asking me to pretend that 1 and 2 aren't also part of the "truth," and pretend that Bush choose to deceive because he was brave. Okay.

#1 and #2 are wrong and irrelevant. Go back and read the bits of that TNR article that club and I were discussing. The CIA wasn't sure. (And Myers told the President they'd been looking for ten years and hadn't found any.) Most of the public may have assumed there were WMD, but most of the public didn't get the CIA's briefing, and the White House classified stuff to make sure it stayed that way.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ironweed
What "numbers game?" Is it a good thing to have more radicalized US-hating Iraqis and Muslims than less?

We have less now than 9/11. They are burried in the sand.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
We have less now than 9/11. They are burried in the sand.

That sort of thinking worked for the French in Algeria, right?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
#1 and #2 are wrong and irrelevant. Go back and read the bits of that TNR article that club and I were discussing. The CIA wasn't sure. (And Myers told the President they'd been looking for ten years and hadn't found any.) Most of the public may have assumed there were WMD, but most of the public didn't get the CIA's briefing, and the White House classified stuff to make sure it stayed that way.

#1 was people knew we hadn't found them in the last X years. This isn't wrong- I knew that Blix hadn't found anything. It isn't irrelevent to your portrait of Bush ignoring a General who said "we haven't found anything."

#2 was everyone assumed he had them. Someone posted a quote where Blix said he assumed sadaam had some. the UN kept sanctions on. Why?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by sgtclub
We have less now than 9/11. They are burried in the sand.

The thought makes my chest swell with pride too, but the point has been made that however well our drain is working, our actions are also adding water to the bathtub.

Which is working better -- faucet or drain -- remains to be seen.

Gattigap