Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
The one guy caught in Pakistan- the no. 3 guy- supposedly has given up a good deal of info that rooted out cells here and in Europe. assume he was tortured to give up the info (I do). Is that acceptable because he clearly had good info? Does it matter that it was likely Paki agents doing the torture (ie is it just that we're above it)?

It's not simply that "we're above it." It's wrong. It violates civil rights and we have no problem with things like keeping China off the most-favored nation list for engaging in it. This isn't a relative issue.

Should we take a "fruit of the poisened tree" approach to torture-induced info?

I would not refuse to use the information. On the other hand, if we're simply allowing the Pakis to act as our proxies, then it's no different than us doing it ourselves.

Whether ex-car mechanics from des Moines should have been molesting prisoners isn't at issue. They shouldn't have, but where we are at in the world right now- at least strains some of those old rule, i think.

Are you related to Paddy Bauler?* The fact that the concept of civil liberties and human rights is being strained in these times calls for greater vigilance, not less. How are we going to foster a democratic culture in the ME if we can't maintain one ourselves?




*The old ward heeler credited with the classic phrase "Chicago ain't ready for reform."

etft -- t.s.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
I am claiming that, in the context of a war, the claims of torture I've seen are a relatively small deal. I think I've typed that word "context" several times.

You've typed the word "context" so many times, I'm wondering whether it's replaced "conscience" for you.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by bilmore
Bullshit. This is entirely a partisan issue. Everyone who hates us for Abu G already hated us for Iraq, and for Afghanistan, and probably for France. No minds were changed; all that happened was a new label was provided. In the grand scheme of things, this is a talking point for one party, and nothing more. The day we as a nation adopt the morals of the Abu G guards, call me. Until then, this is a small group of people given too much discretion who fucked up badly.

In Abu G. And, it appears from the bit I posted originally, Mosul as well. And Gitmo. This "small group" sure does get around.

And this "it doesn't matter because I'm sure that no minds were changed anyway" is the most self-serving pile of shit passing for an argument I've seen you write on this board.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Should we take a "fruit of the poisened tree" approach to torture-induced info?

Stick with the program, Mr. Terry. The question is not what to do with the evidence it produces, but whether to torture said captive in the first place.

Until you decide to engage on that question, I've got you down for "yes, with glee."

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Stick with the program, Mr. Terry. The question is not what to do with the evidence it produces, but whether to torture said captive in the first place.

Until you decide to engage on that question, I've got you down for "yes, with glee."

Fuck you. I had a much longer question. Pakistan comes to us- they tortured some Al Queda guy and the guy says there's a cell in Peoria- What do we do?

Put aside the run of the mill people who were tortured, that was wrong. But the no. 3 Al Queda guy- we left him in Pakistan for a reason- is that okay?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I'm concerned with winning. Everything else is just theory. My soul would not be very happy living in a dictatorship.

Indeed. It dispenses with the need for troublesome line-drawing, too.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Gattigap
And this "it doesn't matter because I'm sure that no minds were changed anyway" is the most self-serving pile of shit passing for an argument I've seen you write on this board.

Certainly not when your main point is that minds were changed. Remember, what I was responding to with that point was "ooooo, it made us look bad, now the whole world disrepects us!"

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Indeed. It dispenses with the need for troublesome line-drawing, too.

You, like everyone else, keep ducking the question.

[Watchtower]

Originally posted by sgtclub
You, like everyone else, keep ducking the question.

Please let me know what question I've ducked.

Yes, I have ideals. The difference between us is that I would find it more noble to die to uphold than to kill to uphold them, where you appear fonder of killing. We are not going to agree on this one.

[Watchtower]

Originally posted by bilmore
Certainly not when your main point is that minds were changed. Remember, what I was responding to with that point was "ooooo, it made us look bad, now the whole world disrepects us!"

Forget about the rest of the world - assuming that you are ready to take on some level of responsibility for things done in our name, how do YOU feel about participating in torture?

Historically, it is very common for those who are tortured to become torturers themselves; not unlike abused children who become abusers themselves. What does it make us feel about ourselves that we resort to torturing so many people in so many places?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Watchtower
Please let me know what question I've ducked.

Yes, I have ideals. The difference between us is that I would find it more noble to die to uphold than to kill to uphold them, where you appear fonder of killing. We are not going to agree on this one.

Fair enough. I believe that would be ducking an obligation of some sort, but your right, we are not going to agree.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Fuck you.

Back atcha, asshole. I guess you don't like sarcastic responses to your questions, either.

I had a much longer question. ...... Put aside the run of the mill people who were tortured, that was wrong.

Congratulations. I had hoped that eventually we'd get past the sarcasm targeted for pussified liberals who have the temerity to be concerned about torture conducted, permitted, or condoned by US forces, and come up with a concession, however grudging, that in some cases it might, you know, not be such a good idea.

Pakistan comes to us- they tortured some Al Queda guy and the guy says there's a cell in Peoria- What do we do?

Put aside the run of the mill people who were tortured, that was wrong. But the no. 3 Al Queda guy- we left him in Pakistan for a reason- is that okay?

Look, if Musharraf calls and say "Hi there, we flayed a guy in Islamabad, he's all over the fuckin' walls now, but anyhoo, we think you should cover Peoria," of course you go.

But I'm not a fan in the first place of the CIA's frequent flier program to drop off detainees at sun-splashed Club Meds around the world to have them, ah, "mistreated" on our behalf.

I remain impressed at the creativity of the apologists on this board in their line-drawing skills. Club's OK with having the women (I assume he's limiting it to the women) raped if they committed a grave offense. You're apparently OK with it if it just happens in messy places like Kabul.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Watchtower
Forget about the rest of the world - assuming that you are ready to take on some level of responsibility for things done in our name, how do YOU feel about participating in torture?

Historically, it is very common for those who are tortured to become torturers themselves; not unlike abused children who become abusers themselves. What does it make us feel about ourselves that we resort to torturing so many people in so many places?

These girls are now in school. Before they would be at home waiting for a Taliban colonel to come rape them. Some people that would like to kill them, and would like to kill my kids, got tortured at Gitmo. I think most of them should be shot as i can't think of how you ever let them go. The only reason to keep them alive is the information they may have. So really the torture is the only reason to keep them alive- Paradox huh? That's how I feel about it.

[Spanky]

You know that people like you is that you are a liberals best friend. Reverand Al Sharpton and Howard Dean are the best friend of Republicans because they are so extreme they push the people in the middle towards our party. And in just the same way, people like you push the wavering middle into the arms of the Democrats. Those pictures that you post and the diatribes you spout are invaluable assets (much more valuable than money) in the Democrats arsenal.

It is people like you that insure that the Democrats control California.

[Watchtower]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski


These girls are now in school. Before they would be at home waiting for a Taliban colonel to come rape them. Some people that would like to kill them, and would like to kill my kids, got tortured at Gitmo. I think most of them should be shot as i can't think of how you ever let them go. The only reason to keep them alive is the information they may have. So really the torture is the only reason to keep them alive- Paradox huh? That's how I feel about it.

I will pray for you. I don't think arguing with you will help.