"I'm GGG and I approve this message."

[John Phoenix]

Originally posted by Spanky
If you think going to Mars is a waste of money, then you almost certainly have to belive sending a man to the moon was a waste of money.

I think that going to Mars is a huge waste of money. My understanding of why we went to the moon was to prove to the Russians that a) we could launch a missile from the US that could hit their territory and b) to rally the people around us and against the Communists during the Cold War. If we needed to go to the Moon to prove that we could hit them with an ICBM, then maybe it was not such a waste. If it was just a rallying cry, then it was a waste. Well, other than the invention of Velcro and Tang, of course.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by John Phoenix
I think that going to Mars is a huge waste of money. My understanding of why we went to the moon was to prove to the Russians that a) we could launch a missile from the US that could hit their territory and b) to rally the people around us and against the Communists during the Cold War. If we needed to go to the Moon to prove that we could hit them with an ICBM, then maybe it was not such a waste. If it was just a rallying cry, then it was a waste. Well, other than the invention of Velcro and Tang, of course.

so you agree with star Wars funding?

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Spanky
Well if you don't believe me - from the Economist.

Kenya

Saving the world in his spare time
Jan 10th 2008 | MANCHESTER, NEW HAMPSHIRE
From The Economist print edition

An early foray into telephone diplomacy


HE IS a busy man, what with the White House to win, but Barack Obama can still make time to lend his niceness to places that need it. Kenya, the home of his late father, is in turmoil. The president, Mwai Kibaki, says he won a surprise re-election last month. The opposition leader, Raila Odinga, says Mr Kibaki cheated.

There is ample evidence of foul play. In several places, on-the-spot counts showed Mr Odinga winning, but the results were changed before being announced nationally. Mr Odinga's tribe, the Luo, are furious. Many have taken up arms. At least 500 people have been killed, some of them while seeking shelter in churches, and 200,000-plus have fled their homes.

In between campaign stops, Mr Obama is trying to help. He broadcast an appeal for calm on Voice of America. “Despite irregularities in the vote tabulation, now is not the time to throw [Kenya's] strong democracy away,” he said. “Now is the time for this terrible violence to end.” He spoke with Mr Odinga by telephone, urging him to meet Mr Kibaki without preconditions to effect a reconciliation. He has apparently tried to get in touch with Mr Kibaki, too, but without success.

Mr Obama's father was of the same tribe as the opposition leader. Mr Odinga even claims to be related to the Obamas, though Mr Obama has not confirmed this. Mr Obama's loyalties, however, are post-tribal: he wants, characteristically, both sides to sit down and talk about it. Kenyans will at least listen to him. They usually prefer their leaders somewhat older than Mr Obama, but they will make an exception for someone who still has a chance of soon becoming the most powerful man in the world. Whether he can bring peace in his spare time is another question, though. Luos joke bitterly that America will have a Luo president before Kenya does.


Since this article was written it is my understanding that Obama has gotten in touch with Kibaki

It's not that I don't believe you -- it's that I think he's powerless, and possibly ignorant and stupid. And I don't think Kibaki did speak to him -- at least that what I heard. Also, it really bothers me that apparently Odinga supporters intimidated Kibaki supporters at the polls and no one is talking about that. I admit I am very biased in favor of the Kikuyu on this whole mess but it bugs me that Obama, a .5 Luo, would step into a situation and think he could do anything. It's like he doesn't understand how deep tribalism runs in Kenya. Of course someone who identifies with the Luo is not going to be able to solve this mess -- a neutral party is what is needed. I think Obama is ineffective at best, and I question his motives.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
I admit I am very biased in favor of the Kikuyu on this whole mess but it bugs me that Obama, a .5 Luo, would step into a situation and think he could do anything. It's like he doesn't understand how deep tribalism runs in Kenya. Of course someone who identifies with the Luo is not going to be able to solve this mess -- a neutral party is what is needed. I think Obama is ineffective at best, and I question his motives.

First, your stated bias baffles me. Please explain.

Second, I can't understand your problem with Obama. From what I've heard, Kenyans are paying very close attention to his prospects (though that may just be what the narcissistic US media sees when it looks abroad). All he's done, as I understand it, is to appeal to both sides to resolve things peacably. It's not like he's trying to mediate. What's the harm in that?

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
First, your stated bias baffles me. Please explain.

Second, I can't understand your problem with Obama. From what I've heard, Kenyans are paying very close attention to his prospects (though that may just be what the narcissistic US media sees when it looks abroad). All he's done, as I understand it, is to appeal to both sides to resolve things peacably. It's not like he's trying to mediate. What's the harm in that?

I am sure that some of the Luo (possibly 0.001% of the Luo population in Kenya) are paying attention to his prospects. I wouldn't expect that anyone from any other tribe has an interest in whether he is successful or not, and I suspect most other tribes would not want him to be successful. In Kenya, tribe is everything. They do not think of themselves as Kenyan -- they think of themselves as members of a particular tribe.

Obama is identified with one side in a tribal conflict. He's not perceived as neutral and his involvement doesn't sit well with Kikuyus. How does that help anyone? An analogous situation would be some American who is 0.5 Tutsi trying to appeal to both sides in the Hutu/Tutsi conflict in Rwanda when it was going on. As far as I can tell, no one there has paid particular attention to his attempts except for Odinga, and he's milking it on the basis that Obama has a Luo connection. It just doesn't seem particularly productive to me and I think Obama would do better to stay out of it than to rile one side.

I'm not sure why I should have to explain my bias, but I have close family members who are Kikuyu (and 0.5 Kikuyu) and Kibaki supporters. They are targets and life is pretty scary these days for them. I would like them to get out, but they don't always listen to me (in fact my sister has never listened to me).

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
I am sure that some of the Luo (possibly 0.001% of the Luo population in Kenya) are paying attention to his prospects. I wouldn't expect that anyone from any other tribe has an interest in whether he is successful or not, and I suspect most other tribes would not want him to be successful. In Kenya, tribe is everything. They do not think of themselves as Kenyan -- they think of themselves as members of a particular tribe.

Obama is identified with one side in a tribal conflict. He's not perceived as neutral and his involvement doesn't sit well with Kikuyus. How does that help anyone? An analogous situation would be some American who is 0.5 Tutsi trying to appeal to both sides in the Hutu/Tutsi conflict in Rwanda when it was going on. As far as I can tell, no one there has paid particular attention to his attempts except for Odinga, and he's milking it on the basis that Obama has a Luo connection. It just doesn't seem particularly productive to me and I think Obama would do better to stay out of it than to rile one side.

I'm not sure why I should have to explain my bias, but I have close family members who are Kikuyu (and 0.5 Kikuyu) and Kibaki supporters. They are targets and life is pretty scary these days for them. I would like them to get out, but they don't always listen to me (in fact my sister has never listened to me).

You don't have to explain anything -- I was just curious.

The reporting I'd heard (public radio?) suggested broader interest in Obama there than you describe, but it sounds as if you are much better informed than I am.

Accepting everything that you say about Kenya, my perception is that the instant crisis is the result of a particularly corrupt Kikuyu government stealing an election to maintain power. From a political perspective, then, I tend to sympathize with Odinga. Not that this justifies the atrocities, of course. I was not under the impression that the violence was being fomented at the highest level, as in (say) Rwanda.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You don't have to explain anything -- I was just curious.

The reporting I'd heard (public radio?) suggested broader interest in Obama there than you describe, but it sounds as if you are much better informed than I am.

Accepting everything that you say about Kenya, my perception is that the instant crisis is the result of a particularly corrupt Kikuyu government stealing an election to maintain power. From a political perspective, then, I tend to sympathize with Odinga. Not that this justifies the atrocities, of course. I was not under the impression that the violence was being fomented at the highest level, as in (say) Rwanda.

As I understand it, your perception is not correct. Both sides are corrupt. And Kibaki is only doing what goes on in many African countries all the time -- when a member of a particular tribe gets into office, that tribe benefits. You think Moi didn't benefit the Kalenjin at the expense of the Kikuyu? You think Odinga would behave differently? And going beyond that, if you take a look at what Kibaki has done for the country, and what Odinga would plan to do, in my opinion Odinga getting in is not in Kenya's best interest.

I'm not sure what you mean by violence not being fomented at the highest level. Do you mean the people with money don't feel threatened? Because, as it has been explained to me, that's not the case.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
As I understand it, your perception is not correct. Both sides are corrupt. And Kibaki is only doing what goes on in many African countries all the time -- when a member of a particular tribe gets into office, that tribe benefits. You think Moi didn't benefit the Kalenjin at the expense of the Kikuyu? You think Odinga would behave differently? And going beyond that, if you take a look at what Kibaki has done for the country, and what Odinga would plan to do, in my opinion Odinga getting in is not in Kenya's best interest.

I don't know much about Odinga. I have heard that Kibaki's government has been exceptionally corrupt, by Kenyan standards. And setting the corruption aside, he seems to have done huge harm to the country by stealing the election.

I'm not sure what you mean by violence not being fomented at the highest level. Do you mean the people with money don't feel threatened? Because, as it has been explained to me, that's not the case.

I mean that the violence has been relatively organic, rather than the result of an organized campaign orchestrated by the political opposition. I have no doubt that there is some orchestration, because much of it seems aimed at forcing people off land, but that sounds more like opportunism. My impression is that Odinga is trying to exert political pressure in the only way available, given the failure of the country's institutions.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't know much about Odinga. I have heard that Kibaki's government has been exceptionally corrupt, by Kenyan standards. And setting the corruption aside, he seems to have done huge harm to the country by stealing the election.



I mean that the violence has been relatively organic, rather than the result of an organized campaign orchestrated by the political opposition. I have no doubt that there is some orchestration, because much of it seems aimed at forcing people off land, but that sounds more like opportunism. My impression is that Odinga is trying to exert political pressure in the only way available, given the failure of the country's institutions.

I kind of think you are talking out of your ass if you think that Kibaki's government was more corrupt than Moi's. There's really no comparison. As for stealing the election, I do not think that it is as cut and dried as you (or the press) make it out to be. As for the violence, it appears to me to be aimed at killing people and the displacement from the land is a side effect. And Odinga is not a good guy, fwiw.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
As for stealing the election, I do not think that it is as cut and dried as you (or the press) make it out to be.

If Kibaki won legitimately, then a lot of people voted for the opposition elsewhere on the ballot but split their ticket and voted for him. As you observed, the salience of tribal loyalties makes this implausible. Also, exit polling suggests Odinga won by 8%, and outside election monitors describe substantial irregularities. But we can't reallly know.

As for Odinga, I don't doubt that he's not a good man. Kenya would be better off with the rule of law, so that the individual character of the country's leader mattered less.

You could say the same thing about US foreign policy, I suppose.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If Kibaki won legitimately, then a lot of people voted for the opposition elsewhere on the ballot but split their ticket and voted for him. As you observed, the salience of tribal loyalties makes this implausible. Also, exit polling suggests Odinga won by 8%, and outside election monitors describe substantial irregularities. But we can't reallly know.

As for Odinga, I don't doubt that he's not a good man. Kenya would be better off with the rule of law, so that the individual character of the country's leader mattered less.

You could say the same thing about US foreign policy, I suppose.

how about where she said "you're talking out of your ass.." because several of us had made similar observations in the past. At some point can't we make that an interpretation rule?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The reporting I'd heard (public radio?) suggested broader interest in Obama there than you describe, but it sounds as if you are much better informed than I am.

My recollection was that there was such a report on NPR; the report also left the impression the election had been stolen.

It may have been one of the BBC news segments on NPR reporting on the stupidly funny Americans and the tragically funny Kenyans. I will never understand British humor.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
how about where she said "you're talking out of your ass.." because several of us had made similar observations in the past.

Since I had already made the same observation in the same conversation, it didn't seem to me to warrant a response, but I'm glad you found it fascinating.

All I know about what's happening in Kenya is what I've heard on NPR and read in the Financial Times. I have the feeling that the NPR program was To The Best Of Our Knowledge, a Canadian show and therefore presumptively well-informed.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Since I had already made the same observation in the same conversation, it didn't seem to me to warrant a response, but I'm glad you found it fascinating.

All I know about what's happening in Kenya is what I've heard on NPR and read in the Financial Times. I have the feeling that the NPR program was To The Best Of Our Knowledge, a Canadian show and therefore presumptively well-informed.

Canadian, British, same thing.

[SlaveNoMore]

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
My recollection was that there was such a report on NPR; the report also left the impression the election had been stolen.

Funny. Practically every report I've ever heard on NPR has alleged that an election has been stolen.